Leave Hindutva as it was mean to be
by Sharrayu Aroskar
I have been following the BJP quiet regularly in the media. There was a sizeable population who wanted BJP to be in power for intellect and integrity reasons. However, the rule was not destined to be in hand for next five years. Never the less BJP has emerged as a largest opposition party and has a myriad contribution to make to influence the government policy decisions positively. BJP supporters in India and living abroad have been waiting since the results for the BJP top brass meeting and lessons thus learnt from introspection.
The media had BJP “atma-chintan” meeting on beat. Some did the job genuinely others either wanted to paint it black or gather news of street side gossip quality. Of the statements that came first from the print media, I was surprised to read one that stated “BJP would re-cast “Hindutva” Knowing the quality of journalism in this country in recent election times, I was waiting for the prints of speeches given by L.K. Advani and Rajnath Singh. It was good to see how BJP supported cultural nationalism.
Ever since I opened my mind and head to politics the word Hindutva was always talked of as a brand that is pro Hindu and anti Muslim. The word to ears also sounds like Hindu extremism these days. I have heard young college girls talk of voting for Congress because BJP is all good except for too much of Hindutva in them. Even educated urban population both settled in India and abroad abhors this word or translates it into Hindu communalism and hates the party or organization that uses it. Naturally its the BJP and RSS that bear the popular brunt.
It is surprising to see how cultural nationalism was tainted by handful of politicians. More surprising is how the people in general have accepted it and even more surprising is the irresponsible print and visual media that leaves the cultural pride of this country on back tracks to make sure they are running on fast TRP tracks.
In my opinion the term Hindutva coined by Vinayak Damodar Sawarkar is an exemplary concept that unites India with its various colors. It is one that makes the blue complement the orange and orange complement the green. It is one that is so essential within this country that it makes the intrusion of foreign rotten brain difficult to penetrate. This concept of Akhanda Bharat houses and encompasses every religion sect and cast. What is refers to is not those who pray like “Hindus” but those that call this motherland their “aai” “ma” “ammi” “mother” etc. When you analyze this a little more, you start observing examples around that support this concept.
I have relished the sheer kurama at friends place on Id. I was born on Pateti and hence Parsi New Year is celebrated in my home in India every year. Having studied in a convent school and alternatively living outside India for a while I and many of my friends who follow other religions except Christianity celebrate Christmas. All Hindu festivals are always celebrated. We look at the office holidays and regardless of the reason of Diwali, Id or Independence Day, it is always welcomed with all zest. In school what binds you in a group is not your caste or religion or language but it’s the culture that you share with your classmates and like experiences. A random someone following Islam doesn’t backfire on Miyan Musharraf because he is a Muslim. He does that because he stands for a culture and knows that the rest, regardless of their religion will stand by his statement in praise and prove him right. It is not out of coincidence that you see Md. Azzaruddin of the Slumdog Millionaire fame touch feet on the podium in spite of being a Muslim. It is not random that a Muslim stands against imposed “Ghunghat” and a Hindu woman stands against forced “Burkha”.
What this states is that something that binds us all in this Indian subcontinent is not our religion or language it’s the culture that we grow in and experience till our death. This beautiful concept of “Akhanda Bharat” or United India was termed as “Hindutva” and every person who calls India his motherland was called a Hindu.
In light of this discussion, the word Hindutva essentially belongs to neither the Congress nor the BJP. It was coined by Vinayak Damodar Sawarkar who was an ardent freedom fighter and an iron man of Sardar Patel cadre. Thus it is the sub standard quality of the Congress thought and other pseudo secular parties to malign a concept that holds Indian culture together for petty votes. It is the arrogance and lack of understanding of common and historical India within the so called “High Command” that has further perpetuated this. It is shameful that the media endorses such actions and maligns parties like BJP and organizations like RSS. The aftermath of which is anti BJP undercurrent because of the use of the word Hindutva.
In my opinion, no party in this country has a right to recast Hindutva as they anyways weren’t the creators of it. Only thing possible is to champion the concept to build a stronger India or build a secular concept better defined than “Hindutva” itself.
[The author http://sharrayuaroskar.com/ is working with a well known Sales & Marketing strategic consulting firm in Pune. She has an under-grad in Computer Science from Mumbai University and Masters from Texas A&M University, USA.]
Comments
102 Responses to “Leave Hindutva as it was mean to be”
Leave Hindutva as it was mean to be…
The word Hindutva essentially belongs to neither the Congress nor the BJP. It was coined by Vinayak Damodar Sawarkar who was an ardent freedom fighter and an iron man of Sardar Patel cadre….
>> Vinayak Damodar Sawarkar who was an ardent freedom fighter and an iron man of Sardar Patel cadre.
more like fascist man of the Hitler, Mussolini cadre. you should read what Golwalkar thought about this Fascist.
BJP shockingly stll in sulk mood, last election also they spent couple of yrs. Bounce back, tell the people what you view of hindutva is. Have clear guidelines, so that people dont equate to Nazi or facist.
I sincerely feel we should get more active locally and push the goverment in the Parliament. We just saw a very sad budget and we were expecting more and a very poor response from budget, not any squeak till now.
Balaji,
I agree that many people have many things to say about many people. I believe Gowalkar had a right to express views about Sawarkar. However its important on a forum like this, and what we readers would like to know of what you think…..
@ Sharrayu Aroskar
आप सभी इतिहास पढ़कर देखें तो आपको मालूम पड़ेगा की हिन्दू ही हिन्दू के दुश्मन रहे हैं .कुछ हिन्दू हमारे देश में ऐसे हैं जिनके अंदर स्वाभिमान नाम की कोई चीज नहीं है .ये गुलामी की मानसिकता में जीने वाले लोग हैं . इस देश में हमेशा ऐसे लोग से रहे हैं ,यह ऐतिहासिक सत्य है .इन्ही हिन्दुओं के समर्थन और सहयोग से मुगलों और अंग्रेजों ने इस देश पर राज किया .इन्हे न तो भारत के ज्ञान पर गर्व होता है न ही भारतीय संस्कृति पर .
आज देश पर आंतकवाद का खतरा मंडरा रहा है और जो देश पर अब तक आंतकवादी हमले हुए इन्ही लोगों के तुष्टिकरण की निति के कारण हुए हैं . इतना तो छोडो मैं इन्ही के नेता इंदिरा गाँधी की बात करता हूँ .१९८४ में इंदिरा गाँधी का देहांत हुआ .जब तक वह जीवित रहीं किसी की हिम्मत नहीं थी की कोई भारत की तरफ टेढी नज़र कर के देखे .लेकिन उनके देहांत के बाद पकिस्तान की नज़र टेढी हो गयी और १९८९ से आंतकवादियों ने कश्मीर से अपना सर उठाना शुरू किया . पकिस्तान ने देखा की देश की सबसे ताक़तवर नेता इंदिरा गाँधी का तो अंत हो चूका है , पकिस्तान ने मौका देखकर देश में आंतकवादियों को भेजना शुरू किया .और आज तक यह सिलसिला जारी है .कौन है जिम्मेदार ? स्पस्ट है सत्ता के लालच में आज की कांग्रेस अंधी हो चुकी है ,दिशाहीन और कमजोर कांग्रेस के नेताओं ने देश का ये हाल बनाकर रखा है .
ये लोग हिन्दू और हिंदुत्व पर प्रश्न करने वाले गुलामी की मानसिकता में जीने वाले लोग हैं .इन्हे तो हक ही नहीं है की हिंदुत्व पर बहस करे और प्रश्न खडा करने करे .
@ Sharrayu Aroskar
कुछ लोगों को देश भक्त नेता वीर सावरकर और सरदार पटेल हिटलर और मुसोलिन लगते हैं तो आप आसानी से अंदाजा लगा सकते हैं की इनकी सोच गुलामी मानसिकता से प्रेरित है .
Sharrayu,
well, to begin with ‘Fascist’ isn’t a bad word in itself. its an ideology, but I doubt many people appreciate that ideology. just to clarify!
i know lot of people especially Maharashtrians hold Savarkar in high esteem. but i think its not well thought out.
for example, there’s this Sadhvi Pragya and her band of warriors like Pandey etc. they might think they are patriots and all. and few people do support them. but which patriot wud bomb innocent dirt poor muslims in godawful Malegaon? thats fascism at work. Savarkar was one like them.
Savarkar may have been a patriot, then so was Hitler, who sacrificed his life for the Third Reich. spare a thought for Eva, his lifelong companion and wife only in death. or say Prabhakaran who fought like any other cadre and died on the battle field. there is valor in such episodes and we should respect that. and Savarkar’s patriotism was of that variety too.
why did hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslims had to pay for the politics of leaders? becos some other folks of the same faith killed ‘Hindus’ in Pakistan? what justice is that?
how is killing Mahatma Gandhi, the work of a patriot? please don’t tell me Savarkar wasn’t involved. i trust you know about Savarkar and the Godse trial in particular.
and how can a country of the world’s finest religions, unbelievable diversity, thousands of languages and mind boggling cultural ethos become the kind of mechanical, soul-less european style uni-cultural ‘nation’ state Savarkar envisioned us to be? curiously ever wondered what Savarkar would have thought of the European Union if he was alive today?
and if Savarkar had succeeded, any guesses on who’s culture, religion and language wud have been thrust on the ‘others’ to bring abt that homogenization?
we shud be thankful that Savarkar didn’t attract more than a bunch of supporters. the results otherwise would have too horrifying.
@ Balaji
एक तरफ पकिस्तान के आततायियों की आलोचना करने वाले और दूसरी तरफ धर्म के नाम पर देश का बंटवारा करने वाले ,धर्म के नाम पर आंतकवादियों और अलगाववादियों को संरक्षण देने वालों और दो मुहा बात करने वालों से ,कौन अच्छा है और कौन बुरा , सीखने की आवयश्कता नहीं है .
Balaji
I suggest you should also write with the same vigour about Taliban. If RSS or any Hindu organization was atleast half bad as Taliban, India would have been in a very bad shape. You should realize that Hindutva is only protecting people like you unless you are prepared to convert to Islam.
Enough of FOBJP now. Ppl here inluding me are just talkers. we talk ideology and Hindutva and meaning of it. We blame everyone except ourselves. What was great about BJP’s performance as opposition party? We missed every opportunity to nail the government in parliament and instead made hue and cry in media!!! An entire budget went undiscused because of foolish floor management of old fool Advani ….pathetic leader of opposition.Instead, entire leadership of BJP wasted time on TV channels. in the process they exposed themselves and their underperformance openly in media. What they did is called baal ki khaal utarna in proper hindi.
it’s only correct that BJP lost. And seeing the trend here on this forum, BJP is doomed to loose again and again till it goes back to jansangh days.
The nonsense of this Manio Gulaal a$$hole Balaji is increasing day by day.
I think he waits all day just to come and write nonsense once an article is posted in BJP leaning forums.
Be it Swapan’s Blog or Kanchan’s , be it the FBJP website everywhere this a$$ is troubling.
His only aim seems to be to disturb the conversation. As congress as funded this virus Balaji full-time to disturb conversations in BJP-leaning forums, BJP should fund for an anti-virus.
Krishna,
its your linguistic assumption that I mentioned in my reply to Sharrayu,
“and if Savarkar had succeeded, any guesses on who’s culture, religion and language wud have been thrust on the ‘others’ to bring abt that homogenization?”
it so happens that I can read Hindi. but how could you assume? nearly half the citizens of this country don’t read/write Hindi.
Kiran your comments may be partially correct. I still don’t see a constructive approach from BJP on coming back to power in 2014. L.K.Advani needs to do some serious introspection on why BJP lost and so do the President Rajnath Singh. The only consolation is the performance of BJP chief ministers like Modi, Chuahan, Yediurrappa, Raman Singh. We need more of these CMs . Also BJP needs to capture A.P , T.N, Kerala and W.B if they would like to come back to power in 2014.
Balaji, Gandhiji was killed for the Injustice he did to the Hindus during Partition. Period. Godse is by no means an extremist. He was a staunch Hindu lover and he couldn’t see the injustice done to Hindus by Gandhi by appeasing Muslims beyond the limits. There is no proof that Savarkar was involved in Gandhi’s death. Without proof your comments are baseless.
Balaji , no body is preaching in killing of innocent poor Muslims in Malegoan. What Sadhvi Pragya did is wrong and she is getting punished for her crime . It is the appeasement of Muslims that is dangerous to a nation like India which you proclaim a diversifed, multi-cultural, multi-ethnic , mulit-linguistic . If Congress practices equi-distance from all the religions it is well and good. However, all the congress leaders including Gandhi went beyond their limits to appease Muslims. This is unwanted and unfair to the Majority of Hindus in the country. How can you expect Stuanch Hindus not be upset about the congress policy of too much minority appeasement.
The problem of the BJP is that it has only a few leaders left in it who can translate Hindutva as cultural nationalism. For that purpose, a strong determination, vision to see beyond 25-30 years and clarity of ideas and the objective is required. The most important of all is that the leadership has to be dead honest in achieving this objective. Today, the BJP lacks such a leadership - individual or collective. Even after losing two successive elections, Advani ji is silent about ideology. Only governance is his mantra. With this, BJP will lose next election also. Truely, the person who made the BJP possible ascending in graph will be responsible for its downfall. Our leaders have a different set of priorities in this era of neo capitalism and globalization. They tend to move with the wind that is flowing in the world. They forget that despite any kind of winds - whatsoever its potential is, mountains are not affected at all. Thus, there is a need of a leadership with a mountain will to change the system. Rest all will fall in line. This objective demands sacrifice of lifestyle and determination which no body is willing to adopt. So to expect something from these people is of no value.
We can attribute the rise of BJP to the hardwork done by Advaniji and raising the number from 2 to 100 in L.S elections. However, the need of the hour is that he should gracefully exit and groom a young and energetic leader who can take the BJP from 100 to 200 in 2014. If that leader be Jaitley or chauhan or Yediurrappa or Raman Singh or some body else, BJP needs to find him. Projecting Modi in 2014 is also going to be problematic because of the 2002 Godhra Riots.
SORRY!!
I have gone through seriously what has been blogged here
I am 78 and am for the “good” policies of the BJP which is nothing but a political facade of RSS, I like RSS I have been woth bjp all through my years and it pains me when I find that it has fallen prey to its own image and is not able to put forward its modern face.I humbly decline to agree with all your analysis
i reside in delhi and all through the years have not been confronted or contact by a single so called bJP men even to vote .My neighbour who right from the ag of 5 has been with RSS at this ripe age feels the agony of being not contacted for any thing in the last about 12 years thoughh he espouses BJP,s cause Bjp lost and shall loose unless it is not able to win the confidence of its electorate unless it gets to its routes Hidutva or no hindutva. In my opinion it has become like congress a place for charltons cheaters kursi-mongers corrupt people withD bent of mine
our counsellor who is a bip man and an ex mla never eve contacts any senior citizen and the propective defeated lady candidate and even me malhotra mr advani enev mr prem never replied to my earnest emails nay even didnot acknowlede it even through an auto reply where as I got rsponses from Obama and practically all congress candidates who are on the net even thatroor from kerela
We are commitment boud because of our that is mine dharma to be woth BJP and mind you we have a collective chunk of dedicated and committed min105 votes of senor citizens inthe area who did vote for the bjp inspite of not being contacted ever
well this taken for granted attitude betrays a mind set which does not care for its members and have itaken it for grantedc their loyality and all
this piches and hurts
Let us look at the facts straight BJP lost because of its over confidence and because its ols projected immage Delhi is an example where congress brought BJP with big ) score find out continually the fauls and the plausibles but the fact is that the delite has lost confidence in the BJP unless of course it really starts serving the people the real janata religious bias not with standing
WE SHOULD FACE THE FACTS FRONT AND SOUARE and not beat about the bush let us confront the relity
prepared to discuss more in person for making bjp effective else it goes the way congress has gone
Pray how a party with a difference shall be and shall behave /Isit the BJP style of loosing and not caring for its own members ?mind you our group was individually lobbied by congress people even after knowing that the votes would not go to them but not a single bjp or associated person contacted us or helped us we hav becometoo individualiistic and confined in our own cacoon number of votes notwithstanding
Malhotraji we share the pain and Agony. I don’t think the fellow readers are happy about the loss of BJP in Delhi either. BJP has lost its strategy in Delhi. I don’t know why the Parliamentary board or the President doing any thing proactive to help BJP. Rajnath Singh is a disaster for BJP.
Very nice article indeed. Let me share a little background about myself, before I start. I have both Hindus and Christians who are relatives in my family. Therefore it has been possible for me to receive the views of both these groups. I think many people in India including myself were convinced about 20 years back that BJP was the answer to the corruption, dynastic rule and nepotism of the Congress. In fact during the rule of BJP in many states there was better harmony between communities than even the Congress rule. BJP’s slogan ‘appeasement of none, justice for all’ had a great charm.
But many incidents which were directly and indirectly linked to BJP changed this viewpoint. First was the demolition of Babri masjid. I personally believe that Hindus do have a right to have a grand temple in Ayodhya, the land of Lord Rama, one of the most respected and loved figures in Hinduism (and otherwise also in India). Even my grandparents who were Kerala based Christians have told me stories of Lord Rama and Sita, much before Ramanand Sagar brought it to the television.
Morever, even if we think of Hinduism as an organized religion (like Islam or Christianity or even Sikhism) we know that each of these religions do have their places of worship in the sites which they consider holy. For instance Muslims have mosque in Mecca (in fact Saudi Arabia does not even allow any other places of worship anywhere even 10-20 kms. away). Similarly the Christians have churches in Jerusalem and the Sikhs have the golden temple in Amritsar. By this logic alone, the Hindus are justified in their aspiration to have a grand temple at Ayodhya.
But my problem is that the loving, adarsh purush Lord Ramachandra would never have wanted a mosque to be demolished for a temple to built on it. Of course, maybe Babur might have built it on top of a temple. But since we cannot punish Babur for his war crimes today and since this issue seems to be so sentimental for a section of the population, the VHP/BJP could have amicably built a grandest temple for Lord Rama, just 500 metres away from that controversial mosque. I do not think the great Lord Ramachandra, who was even willing to talk (and settle peacefully) with Ravana who had stolen his wife; such a great peace loving god would have liked his temple to be built over the hurt sentiments of a large segment of people.
Let me look at the second seminal event which made me re-consider my support. The post-godhra riots. I am personally against Taliban and the Islamic fundamentalism which believes that whole world must be run by the rules mentioned in the Koran. However, I would have had great respect for Mr. Modi if he had systematically identified the culprits of the Godhra carnage and got the cases investigated systematically and got all the culprits exemplary punishment (after all a BJP government was ruling in the Gujarat state and also at the centre in 2002). But instead he took the short cut of getting many Muslims mowed down, some of them totally innocent women and children. Of course some of the staunch BJP guys would say that all this is media hype. (By the way this is another problem with BJP which I find little irritating. If someone disagrees with them, they will be promptly labelled ‘unpatriotic’ or ‘pseudo-secular’ or ‘leftist’ etc. In a country where Kabirdasji said ‘neendak niyare rakhiye’ (those who criticise you should be kept close to you) and where debate and discussion has been a part of our ethos much before the western nations started talking about freedom of speech, it is a habit which comes easily to many BJP cadres and is not conducive for any genuine ‘atm-chintan’ efforts.)
But does it mean that all the media is telling lies (including groups like BBC and Amnesty). Of course some of my VHP/RSS friends immediately told me ‘why are you still digging the past’, you say that ‘Babri masjid should not have been demolished because it is past and yet you keep bring up anti-Godhra’. I say yes, but there is a difference. In case of the temples demolished by some of the Muslim rulers, they are not alive today so we cannot bring them to justice for war crimes and crimes against humanity. But the perpetrators of anti-Godhra riots are still alive and thriving. The BJP has not even apologised properly for this terrible aberration which happened. How can anyone believe that the BJP is capable of running a country in an all inclusive manner? Or will their arrogant anti-Muslim stance further make terrorists of even the moderates among the Muslims?
While I am clearly stating that I am firmly against appeasement of any religious community, because ultimately religion is the personal matter of any individual and that there should be same rules for all communities; I also believe that those among the Hindus who are guilty of breaking the law also should be given the exemplary punishment.
By indulging in anti-Godhra riots the BJP/VHP has given an impression, that it will prefer to take short-cuts through its mobs of VHP/Bajrang Dal etc. rather than follow the law and the system. (Similar to the lawless Shiv Sena or MNS which prefers to use mobs for enforcing their agenda rather than the existing system framework in the country). Of course the reason for this reliance on mobs could also be due to the loss of faith that many people in this country have towards police, judiciary etc. So I expected a party like BJP to improve the police, investigative machinery, jails and judiciary. Instead what does the BJP do whenever it tastes power? It supports/engineers /abets riots whether it is Godhra or Kandamal. That is the impression that I get. It also strongly supports those who make aggressive statements against a particular community (like Mr. Varun Gandhi) as long as the community is Muslim or Christian or any other.
Recently, the BJP including Mr. Modi keep talking about tougher laws. Why do we need tougher laws? So that the police can arrest anyone, torture anyone, beat up anyone, keep them in the jails for longer and longer durations? So that the police and state machinery can intimidate the poorest of the poor and the marginalised sections of the society without anyone to question them?
What is the purpose of a democracy? The purpose of a democracy is to give more and more powers to the people. In the name of security the BJP plans to take away more and more powers away from the people and concentrate it in the hands of the state. Are we realising this?
Are there need for more laws in our country? Are there not enough laws in our country against violence, harm, destruction, killings, rapes, robberies? Why do they need more and more powers?
Instead of increasing the efficiency and quality of investigation, judicial machinery etc. and thus improving conviction rates by giving better training of police, improving judicial and jail infrastructure, the BJP wants to take the short-cut of giving more and more power to the police and the state to torture, arbitrarily arrest and even kill by encounter. So that along with the few guilty, countless innocents will be tortured, beaten or even killed.
Now if anyone questions this approach of BJP to achieve through short-cut what should be done through proper methods, immediately we are labelled ‘unpatriotic’ ‘appeaser of Muslims’ etc.
Now let us look at the third issue of conversions. I believe that those who indulge in conversions are like salesmen who sell soaps and have not understood spirituality properly. Again those who convert for the sake of benefits or money are being dishonest and have no understanding of spirituality. This is my belief. Having stated this, I fully believe that every person of any faith has a right to preach his faith. That is upto him. And if some person wants to convert to another religion for the sake of money (without any use of force or fraud), provided he is a full adult and knows what he is doing, it is again his personal business.
For instance if a beautiful young girl wants to marry a rich old man for his money (and not for his love), it is her personal business (provided she is mature enough to know what she is doing). What business does the state have in it?
Yes the state should arrest those who convert forcibly or through fraudulent miracles. Beyond that if the converts are adults and converting willingingly (even if it is for some material benefit) who are we to judge them or to prevent them?
{Well from a Hindu point of view if I look at it, naturally I would feel threatened by this erosion of Hindu culture. But then a morally correct way to prevent conversions is for many Hindu organizations to create a fund for those utterly neglected sections of our society who are lured by money to convert. Such a fund could help the dire needy neglected by government and taken care of by the missionaries. If this happens, over a period of time, the conversions could stop.}
Instead of that, our so-called Hindutvadis attack, pillage and kill those tribals in Kandamal. Chase them from their homes and make them refugees in their own land. Does Hindutva mean all this ?
Probably no. But the tragedy of ‘Hindutva’ today (the BJP version) is that it is much more of a narrow version of Hindutva. For eg. The BJP version of Hindutva believes that all Mughal rulers were merely invaders forgetting that ultimately the Aryans were also migrants to India. Morever, a culture is always like a flowing river into which small rivulets add their water. Christianity, Islam and other communities and cultures have enriched Indian culture and added to it. Therefore the real broad version of this Hindutva culture is the sum total of the Mughal influence, Christian influence, Buddhist and other influences.
I think if the BJP really wants to do a genuine and radical ‘atma-chintan’ rather than old wine in new package type re-circulation of ideas, I think these are some view points that it must take into consideration, even while sticking to its position of building ONE INDIA FOR ALL INDIANS ; a country which will protect each of its citizens, whether it is the Kashmiri Pandit or the Gujrati Muslim.
Mr Jacob,
You seem to agree only to disagree.This country needs people who can call a spade a spade,not the pretenders who justify blatant convertion citing economic reasons.Are the muslims of this country not the most backword economicaly?.Why Missionaries are not converting them?. The answer is simple.They lack the spine to even touch them.
I believe in Jacob’s version. What business BJP and VHP have in forcing ppl what religion they shall follow? I’m born hindu, but it’s my personal choice that I continue to be hindu. State has no role to play in it. i have lost hope on BJp because of people like this mr shetty. these are enemies of BJP.
i mean you are an enemy of BJP.
B.R. Shetty your comments are correct. Also, Mr. Jacob thank you for all the analysis you have put about the Ayodhya issue. One thing I don’t understand is that why is the Babri committe not thinking liberally and agreeing to construct Babri Masjid some where else. Ayodhya is a sacred place for Hindus. Why is the Babri Committe so stubborn on not loosing the land when they know for sure that a temple was razed and then Babur constructed the Masjid on top of it. Why can’t Muslims of India respect the faith of the Majority of Hindus and let go the Babri Masjid with a big heart. If Gandhi and Hindus have sacrificed Pakistan for the sake of Muslims why can’t Muslims do some sacrifice to accomodate the Hindus.
Regarding Godhra, let the Law of the Land takes it course and let the Justice be brought whoever is needing it.
Jacob, your comments about Aryans is incorrect. Aryan Invasion is fraudulent theory and there is no archeological evidence found to prove this theory. So most of your comments are not 100 % accurate.
Jacob, there is no reason for Modi to apologise for any thing related to Godhra. He is not convicted of any crime as of today related to Godhra. The only thing that dragged Modi into the Godhra controversy is a statement by one police officer which says that Modi instructed the Police officers to let the Hindus vent their anger against the minorities. This is a complete fraud statement provided by that police officer. See below all the details related to that police officer who lied .
Advocate General (AG) of the Gujarat government Kamal Trivedi on Saturday denied that there was any “instruction” issued by Chief Minister Narendra Modi to the police to “allow” the Hindus to vent their anger against the minorities in the aftermath of the Godhra train carnage on February 27, 2002.
Opposing the Jansangharsh Manch application before the G.T. Nanavati-Akshay Mehta judicial enquiry commission to summon Mr. Modi and some others to examine their “role and conduct” during the post-Godhra riots, Mr. Trivedi said the evidence available with the Commission suggests that the police were told to take every possible step to maintain law and order and to contain violence.
In his over three-hour long presentation before the commission here, Mr. Trivedi also denied that Mr. Modi had “entered” the burnt S-6 coach of the Sabarmati Express at the Godhra railway yard “with an entourage” and in the process destroyed some important evidence. He said Mr. Modi had only climbed up the steps of the burnt coach and peeped inside but never entered the compartment and there was no question of his destroying evidence. He was accompanied by some government officials and not by an “entourage” of the party workers as the Manch application suggested.
Referring to the meeting of the top officers convened by the Chief Minister on the night of the train carnage to review the situation in view of the protest “bandh” call given by the Vishwa Hindu Parishad the next day, Mr. Trivedi said the Manch heavily relied on the third affidavit of the former Additional Director General of Police, R.B. Sreekumar, in which he quoted the then DGP, K. Chakravarthy, having told him that Mr. Modi wanted the police to “allow” the Hindus to vent their anger.
But the affidavits filed by Mr. Chakravarthy himself, the then Additional Home Secretary Ashok Narayan, and the then Ahmedabad Police Commissioner P.C. Pande, who were actually present at the meeting, categorically stated that instructions were given by the Chief Minister to “do everything possible to prevent any upsurge of violence and further to take all lawful and necessary steps to ensure arrest of such violence.
Mr. Trivedi said that even Mr. Sreekumar in his first two affidavits as well as during his oral deposition before the commission made no insinuation but made such “blatant and untrue allegation” only on being denied promotion later to embarrass the government. The AG also questioned the authenticity of the two compact discs containing the list of mobile phone numbers which formed the major part of argument of the Manch to summon Mr. Modi and others. Quoting from the affidavit filed by Rahul Sharma, the then Superintendent of Police assisting the crime branch in the riot investigation, who had arranged for the CDs from the then two mobile service providers, Mr. Trivedi said Mr. Sharma himself admitted that he had taken the CDs home, copied them on the hard disc, analysed, zipped and made two new CDs.
He had claimed that the original CDs received from the mobile companies were handed back to the then Crime Branch chief, P. P. Pande, but the official denied having received them. Other affidavits of the crime branch officials also made it clear that there was no trace of the original CDs while the originals copied into Mr Sharma’s hard disc had also been erased.
Time granted
Manch advocate Mukul Sinha, who disputed Mr. Trivedi’s contentions on the authenticity of the CDs, pointed out that the government in its case in the Gujarat High Court on the arrest by the Special Investigation Team of the former Minister of State for Women’s Welfare, Mayaben Kodnani, had used the same CDs as authentic and used the information they contained to file the charge sheet against her.
On his request, the Commission gave Dr. Sinha time on July 15 to argue on the authenticity of the CDs.
BJP: Big Juicy Penis
@ Mr. B.R Shetty and SKG
Regarding conversions I believe the correct approach is to remove poverty and alleviate people from a situation where they have to change the religion to get some material means.
You are talking about spine. Do we as a nation only have spine to indulge in violence and no spine to create development for the poorest of the poor?
(In fact the remedy that I suggested of setting up a ‘poorest of poor fund’ for those who face the prospect of conversion due to poverty will serve 2 purposes.
1. It will help those who really face poverty and are tempted to convert for money to avoid that path.
2. It will help us gather data as to what percent of conversions really happen for the sake of money. We could also investigate the other reasons for which people convert, at least for academic purposes.)
Having said this, if one poor guy decides to embrace Islam or Christianity or any other religion fully knowing that he is doing it for material benefits, do we have any right to prevent him from doing so?
I gave the example of a beautiful lady marrying a much older man for his money. But as long as she knows what she is doing and mature enough to understand the consequences of her action, who are you and me to decide or interfere in her decision.
Yes you have a point when you say that many missionaries do not have the guts to convert Muslims. Perhaps you are right. But that is their personal choice. Let me give you another metaphor. If a salesman decides to go to one house and not another to sell his goods, that is his personal choice and does not mean that his rights to offer his wares for sale should be taken away.
Mr. Shetty, personally I strongly believe and reiterate again that according to me, people who believe one religion is superior to another have not understood true spirituality. Having said this, despite my disagreement with those who want to convert, I respect their rights to do so, as long as they do so without using physical force, violence, threats or fraud. Let us be the true liberal democracy that India really was originally and not a democracy which believes in force, violence etc. in the name of cultural protection. In fact it is because of this great liberal and democratic traditions of India that the zamorin of calicut allowed disciples like Thomas to land in Kerala and convert people hundreds of years ago when christianity actually landed in India. Of course the unique Indian cultural heritage must be nurtured and protected. But this must be done through soft means of communications and by involving people in different religions in nation-building efforts and by educating them about our national heritage.
Regarding the Babri Masjid issue as mentioned by SKG, indeed the Babri masjid committe should have been accommodating on this issue, as you rightly point out. In fact I would even say that Lord Rama is a national symbol. But this is the problem with many of our ’so-called’ patriots. If the Muslims were not willing to give the site because they felt it was a mosque, then all Indians should have got together and constructed a grandest temple near the mosque. I think from what I have understood from the personality of Lord Rama, he would himself have preferred the latter solution.
Dear SKG, I think that a section of the Muslims in India are somewhat fundamentalist. So are the rest of Indians and Hindus in a race to prove that we are more fundamentalist than them? If a crazy dog bites you, do you try to prove that you are more powerful than the dog by trying to bite it back. [In fact I refer to some other post here where a person is trying to compare RSS/VHP to taliban and saying that we are better. Of course RSS and VHP are better than taliban. Taliban is the cruel, uncivilised and barbaric version of Islam of which all Muslims should be ashamed of. To say that RSS is better than that is like saying that I am better than a mass murderer and so I am good. Well is it any standard to be better than mass murderer....? (I mean you can rob, steal, rape and all that and still claim to be better than mass murderer). So in fact saying that RSS or VHP is better than taliban does not say anything great about these organization.]
Of course, if Babur was very much alive or even if had demolished a temple and built a mosque over it recently (maybe in the last 10-20 years), I would have whole-heartedly supported the demolition of this ‘illegal’ mosque. Morever Babur should have been made to stand trial and face justice for it.
But this has happened hundreds of years back and despite the evidence, demolition of an existing place of worship to create another place of worship, when in fact both the places of worship can exist side by side pleasantly is to me what is called ‘unnecessary obstinacy’ to prove a point. I think some of the fundamentalists among us want to prove that in India we Hindus are the boss. So this action of Advani and others was more of this show of force to ‘prove a point’ which brought him in the same category of Taliban in Afghanistan, which also demolished the famous Bamiyan statues of Buddha. (Of course, we can argue on and on that ‘our demolition’ of the centuries old mosque was more right than their demolitions of centuries old buddhist statues).
Now about that Aryan invasion theory. You are right that there are doubts about the 100 percent reliability of this theory, however the majority of objective historians believe in it. However I do agree with you that it is not a flawless theory. Perhaps Aryans did not migrate to India, but perhaps they migrated from India to Europe and elsewhere.The point I am making here is that India is also a country where people have moved in and out and within India to different areas over periods of time so it would be wrong to have this chauvinistic idea of ‘people originally from India’.
About Modi, as I said I would have had greater respect for that person, if he had really used the legal and investigative system to identify and get the culprits punished severely. Of course like you, one can bring a mountain of technicalities to ‘prove’ that he was not guilty. But the reports of various NGOs, independent bodies, newspapers and even the speeches of Modi in February and March 2002 (some of which I have seen and heard live were strongly anti-Muslim)certainly make it a very uphill task to ‘prove’ that Modi is ‘not guilty’. We have to also keep in mind that Modi was never even asked to vacate his CM chair by the BJP so that an independent enquiry can take place on what really happened in Godhra or post-Godhra. So it is much easier for a powerful Chief minister to destroy evidences and influence people who might be in a position to prove and substantiate his guilt. Therefore even if Modi is declared ‘totally innocent’, it will be difficult to give this perception to the majority of people in India (unless they are staunch BJP supporters). In politics perception is as important as technical evidence. For this reason alone, he will be a figure not really palatable to a large section of the Indian population as a prime ministerial candidate.
In fact I believe that other than ‘non-appeasement’ ‘violence’ and ‘intimidation’ the BJP does not have any clear cut policy to deal with Muslims and Islam. But I think this approach is going to be dangerous, because some Muslims are likely to lose faith in the Indian system and turn against the state (in the form of terrorists).
I think whether we like it or not, Muslims and Islam will have the largest number of followers in the world by around 2030 (based on some projections). It is matter of great concern, because a section of Muslims unfortunately, want to stick to a fundamentalist interpretation of the Koran. Even if this section is a small percentage, it translates into big numbers because the total population of Muslims is high. Therefore the correct way, in my opinion is to bring them into the mainstream in India. 11 crore Muslims (and growing exponentially due to the reason that most poorer Muslims have either no idea about birth control or are not liberal enough to avoid the literal interpretations of Koran) will be very difficult to confine to side-lines. If we do not engage them constructively in the development, employment and occupation while understanding the cultural ethos and heritage of India, it is going to be more and more difficult to prevent them from falling into militant hands.
Therefore all organizations which aim to spread the cultural ethos of India like the RSS must start recruiting Muslims also in the organization, so that all Indians including Muslims/Christians/Parsis can be part of the Indian cultural and ancient historical heritage.
RSS has not slit any body’s throat are killed indiscriminately. So there is no comparison between RSS and Taleban. Christian Evangelisim comes with up all kinds of reasons to support their dubious conversion program. Conversion should be voluntary. I don’t see this happening in India. The catholic church is heavily investing money and resources to convert the dalit community into Christianity by hook or crook.
Again, Aryan invasion has no real archeological evidence and it is proposed by European-centric white supremacist like Max-Mueller to humiliate Indian culture, language and history and subdue it to European ideologies.
No politician in India is perfect. So Modi may have his own mistakes in dealing with the Godhra riots. Let the SIT investigation complete its findings on Modi and the Supreme court make its own decision on his involvement. There is not much of a credibility in the reports of various NGOs, independent bodies, newspaper.
Regarding the Muslims, I think India will again experience a major civil war in 2050 when the population of Muslims and Hindus will be 50-50. History will repeat and some solution will emerge for the Hindu-Muslim problems.
Jacob, your comments on Kandhamal are not true. You need to read neutral comments on Kandhamal and the deep issues between the two tribes that are currently involved in the conflict . Don’t see the Kandhamal incident through the lens of Christian Evangelists. Why should Christian evangelists kill Laxmanananda Saraswati ?. Why are christian evangelists using Moaists to eliminate the obstacles in their dubious conversion programs ?.
@skg
About the maoists, when they have themselves accepted that they have killed swamiji, despite this many VHP guys continue to propagate that christians have killed swamiji. Even the christian groups have condemned the killing of swamiji. Now despite this accepting of responsibility on the side of maoists, the VHP continues to say christians killed swamiji (another example of self-righteousness in the views of some of these groups which refuses to take any contrary opinions).
{{In fact, once I forwarded one article mentioned in Tehelka about some statements made by ministers in Gujarat. Instead of replying to the points that the article raised, immediately that friend started saying that Tehelka is run by pro-congress people. {It may be the case, I told him, but that does not mean the points mentioned in an article need to be swept under the carpet. Morever, I pointed out that Tehelka has also run quite a number of stories about missionary activity in India and some of the congress corruption issues also.} So sometimes I see among the hard-core BJP/RSS members some kind of false pride that they alone are the true patriots and that all those who don’t agree with them or don’t support them blindly are ‘pseudosecularists’ or ‘people without pride in India’ or ‘pro-pakistan’ etc. etc. I think if the BJP really wants to do an atm-chintan, I think they should look at these questions by those who criticise the party rather than look at suggestions only from the hard-core supporters.}}
Coming back to our main discussion, now let us say for the sake of argument that some christian fellows did conspire to kill swamiji. What is the correct course of action here..? The correct course of action is to investigate, find out the killers and get those culprits duly punished.
Instead of that, what the BJP/VHP guys do is that they kill, threaten the christian tribals (who are also Indians). I never heard of BJP mobs killing any foreign evangelists… !! Instead they prefer to kill fellow Indians..(all in the name of ‘protecting Hindutva’)
Is this the kind of main stream party in which all sections of India are supposed to feel confident?
As I mentioned earlier SKG, if the catholic church is investing money to convert dalits (as many in the RSS/VHP would have liked to have us believe), then why cannot the BJP/RSS/Bajrang Dal, instead of distributing trishuls and lathis, collect funds for the development of these dalits to prevent them from falling prey to inducements.
What I am saying SKG is that although I do not support evangelists at a moral level, I believe that these problems have to be done in a civilized manner. Whether it is the question of a temple at the birthplace of Lord Rama or the question of conversions… the stand of BJP/RSS has shown a tendency to take short-cuts. Short-cut of violence and using the brutal force of majority.
I think I will be the first one to support BJP the day it completely says good bye to mob actions and supports rule of law, broad-minded approach to the question of ‘who is an Indian’ and widens the concept of Hindutva to include all Indians who have been born and brought up in India.
I think today, that is the global model of citizenship in developed parts of the world also.
Jacob, there is no reason for Maoists to kill Laxmananda Saraswati. Christian evangelists have used Maoists to kill Laxmananda Saraswati. Don’t use word jugglery or your intellectual arrogance to save Christian evangelists from their Murder Sin.
If you don’t like Hindutva or Hindus, there are other websites you can spread your Evangelisism and its poison . Don’t poison this website with your anti-Hindu, anti-RSS , anti-VHP stand. All the christian evangelists have intellectual arrogance and it is clearly evident from your blogs so far. Back off. Hindus don’t need your poisnous love. It is the responsibility of the Orrissa government to investigate the murder of Laxmananda Saraswati. It is not the responsibility of RSS/VHP.
I would greatly appreciate if Mr. Jacob voluntarily cease to spread his anti-hindu sentiments here. I m not sure how much he is paid by the government and other foreign countries/missionaries to write here. I suggest the moderator of this site take the views of the real friends of BJP and take steps to avoid intrusion to the real integrity and unity of the people following the friends of BJP and BJP per se. We humbly refuse to receive any comments from any individual whose interest is to spread malice among the readers of friends of BJP. Hindu’s have two pronged enemies, One of the minority community has taken the onus to hurt us physically and the other psychologically. We have been silent enough to take their blows till now, its time that we raise above our segregation and be united for the cause of HINDUISM. Jai Hind!
Heloo Mr Jacob, dont try to spread the nonsense. In the district of Kandhamal(Orissa), people have given a massive victory to the BJP MLA despite all the conspiracies that you guys made to oust the BJP sentiment there.
Pls dont forget, God is good and is omnipresent.He sees everything thats happenning around. One day the culprit will be booked and believe me the whole nation will watch the cruel merciless activities that you guys are doing in the name of giving justice to the adivasis. Can u step above the ruthless forced conversion mechanism.
My intention was to expose the pretenders and I have succeeded.I would rather respect a jihadi than a missionary indulging in deciet.Let them admit what they are doing instead of giving convinient reasons.Why cant they go to China and indulge in what they are doing here.Again the answer is simple.They need to undergo spine transplant.
As a hindu I have no hesitation to say that what sadvi Pragya did was wrong and Godra and subseqvent violence also wrong.I have nothing to do with RSS or VHP.For your kind infomation Mr Jacob and Kiran I am a regular visiter to Infant jesus church in Vivek Nagar in Bangalore for the last 15 years.By raising my voice against injustice to Hindus I am branded as communal or facist so be it.
B R Shetty, you have done a right thing by raising your voice against injustice to Hindus. The christian church will not like this . However, we have to raise our voice against their evil ways of converting people into christianity. Some churches just like Mosques are openly telling their followers to vote for congresss. I don’t know when churches have become a venue for political gathering. Hindus must raise their voice against dubious conversion of dalits into Christianity.
BJP has no hope if it fails to internalise criticism. All the Hindutvavadi’s here please leave BJP alone, or else we won’t have any choice to log off from FoB forever. And then you can have all the bandwidth on this site as you please. You people can happily spread whatever venom RSS brainwashing has infested in you.
Well, Jacob, why are we wasting our time here. This is going to be my last post on this site. BJP will never be cured of this hatered cancer.
Bye folks, I’m a friend of congress now. I invite all the sane people on this site , who believe in the idea of multicultural India, to quit with me.
BJP is more multicultural than your congress party or anybody else. BJP does not loose anything if u spread any nonsense against it and get glued to the silent hatred that your party is spreading under the carpet. The N number of divisions in society in the name of cast, creed, religion, biases, vote based reservations will all end if this power hungry congress can be understood by the educated people. But allas that is not to be. As congress attacks with triple or multiple sword. Uses some sections of society to fight against others and vice versa. Reduces prices just before elections and takes it away soon after elections are over. 4 Lakh crores of debt taken to finance the people so that they would vote for the party.. lots of foreign educated ministers are there, shameful that noone bothers to analyse the state of economy.. GOD SAVE THIS COUNTRY FROM THE HANDS OF CONGRESS PARTY.
Jai Hind.
Wake up people..!
stop critisizing the BJP on issues like babri mazjid and Godhra riots. Everyone is bound to have their own views and sentiments attached to it.
Why cant we Indians be bothered about the current state of the Indian economy? Why cant we just think about India growing? Iam sorry to say that some of the people here are so blinded by communal feelings that they seem to forget the nationalist steps undertaken by the NDA during its regime, without worrying about votebanks. By highlighting the so called ‘wrongs’ of the party they are actually ignoring the very obvious flaws of the congress party. All of us are aware of the mess in which UPA-1 has left his country in, with an enormous fiscal deficit of 6.5%, why cant we be bothered about that? The current shape of the Indian economy is getting worse due to the social measures of the government, why cant we be bothered about that?
We all know here including Mr. Kiran and Mr. Jacob that the socialist schemes of the UPA are vote bank stunts to remain in power, would you disagree with that?
Is it right to support a party which places its own vested interests before the interests of the country?
Hindu nationalism is not a BJP concept, as per the article, it is as per the supreme court order in 1995. BJP only claims to be practising hindu nationalism.
It is only the educated people like you who can make a difference, if you guys want to see your country rise and grow vote for BJP. Vision is most important for developing a country. It is only the BJP which can provide good governance without caring for vote banks, this was indicated between 1998-2004.
Jai Hind
Kiran, your posting is not required here. You and Jacob are friends in disguise. You are not friends of BJP. You haven’t contributed positively to this website. You are infact friends of Christian evangelists who want to destroy Hindus and who have a deep hatred towards Hindus. There are many sincere people out there who are interested in helping BJP. Please don’t waste your time here.
MJ please don’t preach to Kiran and Jacob. Their intelligence is hijacked by Christian evangelists and Jihadi fundamentalists.
@ jacob & kiran
जहाँ कांग्रेस को यह सीख देनी चाहिए की १०० करोड़ हिन्दुओं के बीच कैसे रहा जाता है कैसे जीवन यापन किया जाता है वहीँ कांग्रेस क्रिस्चन और मुस्लिम को हिन्दुओं के खिलाफ भड़काकर फ़ुट डालो और राज करो की नीति पर चल रही है और इनको चला भी रही है .जैकब और किरण जैसे मासूमों को मेरी यह सलाह है की देश के पारसियों से सीखो की १०० करोड़ हिन्दुओं के बीच कैसे रहा जाता है .पारसियों से अच्छा और आदर्श संप्रदाय इस देश में नहीं है .जबकि इनकी जनसँख्या मात्र ५० हज़ार ही है .पारसी संप्रदाय को न तो हिदुओं से कोई शिकायत है न हिन्दुओं को पारसियों से .क्यों ? जरा इसपर जैकब और किरण जैसे महानुभावों को सोचना चाहिए और पारसियों से सीख लेनी चाहिए .यही है एकमात्र संप्रदाय है जो किसी भी हिन्दुओं का धर्म परिवर्तन नहीं करता और न हिन्दुओं से इन्हे कोई बैर है
यह उन दिनों की बात है जब मुंबई में पारसी इरान से विस्थापित होकर आये थे तो मुंबई के हिन्दू रजा (मैं नाम भूल रहा हूँ ) को यह वचन दिया था की वे हिन्दुओं में इस तरह घुल मिल जायेंगे जैसे चाय में शक्कर .और कहना न हो होगा उन्होंने अपनी बात सच कर दिखाई .
@ kiran
मुझे नहीं लगता की किरण हिन्दू है और यदि हो भी तो उसके विचार हिन्दू विरोधी क्रिस्चन से प्रदूषित हैं .
Some people use Hindus names to hide their real identity and their hatred .
@Mr. JK, SKG et al,
By requesting me to stop indulging in debate, you are only proving that some elements like you do not believe in debate and discussion but only believe in coercion and taking short-cuts to avoid looking at real issues. In fact some comments of so-called ‘friends’ of BJP show an intolerance of criticism. If BJP is really a democratic party, it should welcome criticism with an open mind.The very fact that some people are attacking me and calling me names like ‘christian fundamentalists’ and ‘jihadis’ itself shows that BJP always resorts to personal attacks when faced with criticism. If people criticise BJP they are called ‘pseudo-secularists’ or ‘anti-Hindu’ etc. In other words, many people in BJP have no patience to look at issues, but prefer to attack people at personal level.
Instead of debating on issues, Mr. SKG prefers to say that my intelligence is hijacked by jihadis etc. whereas if you see my posts, I have given credit to BJP where it is due and clearly mentioned that I am against all forced conversions and also against jihadism.
However, unlike some of you, who believe that whatever the BJP does is correct and whatever the Congress does is wrong, I am willing to adopt a discriminatory intellectual position on all this.
I do not know about others like Kiran, but certainly, only a foolish person who has not read my comments will ever say that I hate Hinduism. No real Indian can hate hinduism, because even so-called Muslims and christians in India by virtue of being born in this land, are in a broader sense ‘Hindus’ only.
@BR Shetty,
I am happy that you are a multi-cultural person, but I am also sad that instead of punishing those individuals indulging in forcible conversions by the force of law, whenever the BJP has ruled states, it has resorted to mob violence.
We have seen that in post-Godhra riots and recently in Kandamal.
I am totally against jihadis and forced conversionists and believe that they should be punished severely by applying the proper sections of the law.
I think somehow, some people on this website, who call themselves ‘friends’ of BJP are not able to understand this simple assertion of mine.
@Krishna Tarway,
Yes indeed I do agree with you that Parsis have been exemplary citizens of the country. But having said that you should note that while most Parsis came from Persia (and probably have a different racial and genetic profile), the christians and Muslims (most of them) are originally Indians in the sense that they were Hindus who converted to these religions either voluntarily or by force in previous centuries.
The second point to be noted here Krishnaji is that while I strongly condemn all conversions by fraud or force, I do believe that religion is the personal matter of each individual.
Krishnaji, if tomorrow you decide to become a christian or Muslim or even an atheist, maybe due to your own choice or even by getting tempted due to money or any other reason, I believe that it is entirely your personal matter and no one else has any business to say anything or harm you physically.
This is the point that I am making again and again but some people do not seem to understand.
In fact I am saying this again and again because we are living in 21st century and not in the 16th century. As a party BJP needs to be broad minded about these things. While fraud and physical violence should be punished by strengthening our police forces, judiciary etc. human right of freedom of practice and freedom to preach a person’s belief should never be compromised. If these two things are compromised slowly, we will become similar to many intolerant Islamic countries.
Krishnaji all that I am saying is that tomorrow even if YOU start a new religion and want to preach it, you also should have full freedom to do so, as long as you do not indulge in cheating or physical violence.
I do not understand how and why, because of these simple assertions on human rights and global freedoms, some people can call me ‘anti-Hinduism’ or ‘pro-jihadi’. It is really amusing…..!!
Yes, Mr. Jacob thanks for your detailed post. However, we cannot accept the nefarious designs of Christian missionaries and Jihadi fundamentalists. Congress in the mask of secularism is helping these dubious christian missionaries and Jihadi fundamentalists.
I don’t like congress because they have ignored the sentiments of Hindus for last 62 years begining with Gandhi. Even Gandhi has appeased Muslims in many instances and he is not fair to Hindus. Even Nehru did the same thing and he is also responsible for the partition of India. Kashmir problem is created by congress party alone under the leadership of Nehru. Instead of listening to the Army , Nehru approached U.N and created Kashmir problem. Arunachal Pradesh problem is also creation of congress party. Instead of protesting the evil designs of China it is not doing any thing substantial to get a strong hold on Arunachal Pradesh. Congress also ignored the problem of Tibet by not helping Dalai Lama politically. All most all the congress leaders are corrupted and they are hiding their money in Swiss Bank. Estimated 3,60,,000 crores of Indian money is in Swiss banks. India is ruled by Congress for almost 50 years and only congress politicians have their money in Swiss Bank.
Also, it was under the blessings of Congress party Mr. Laloo Prasad Yadav declared that Godhra Train incident is a electical accident when the matter of the truth is that the trained was burned by Jihadis who were inspired by the Bin Laden’s ideology of killing Kaafirs.
What discussion do you want to hold ?. If you honest suggestions or honest intentions you are welcome. However, if you continue to support Congress indirectly by attacking BJP that is not welcome .
You are talking about religious conversion. Even though we may not be living in 16th century what happened in 16th century is effecting us who are now living in 21st century. The problem of Ayodhya is still continuing in India today in 21st century. India has the majority of population Hindus. I believe that a RAM temple existed in Ayodhya in 16th century. Numerous archeologists and independent investigating agencies have identified it. So, the Babri Masjid committe should atleast allow 50% of the land to be used for the construction of the temple. Instead of dubiously holding it and not allowing any construction for any purpose they are wasting that land without any use. If India liberarly gave Muslims a large territory of land during partition why can’t Muslims do a small sacrifice for the benefit of Hindus. Hindus are just asking few acres of land in Ayodhya . Is that a serious demand ?.
@SKG
Firstly I will certainly not stop writing on BJP website because between the Congress and the BJP I have always felt that BJP has some merit in the matter of corruption and their view of fast development.
However, criticism should be always welcome and your words “attacking BJP is not welcome” shows that somehow you seem to believe in criticism only as long as it suits you. In fact aversion to criticism is the first sign of fascism.
I do not particularly care about your wrong perception or the perception of some others that I am pro-Congress. In fact I do agree with much of your comments about the corruption and utter lack of efficiency on the part of congress. In fact India would have been a developed country by now, if the Congress was less corrupt and more development oriented.
I do support the BJP stance that there should be one uniform civil code. In fact, Muslims should have given up their mosque voluntarily. But if Muslims did not show that generosity, the leaders of the Hindu community could have shown their broad-mindedness and liberal outlook (in keeping with the personality of Lord Rama) by constructing a grand temple a few hundred meters away from the mosque. What was the point in trying to exhibit brute power and violence by demolishing a mosque?
I would like a BJP which treats every citizen of the country as its own, whether it is the Kashmiri pundit or the tribal who converted to christianity to avoid poverty or a Muslim. This principle of global and abiding respect for human rights of all citizens within the walls of India should be clear.
Having said this, all those who indulge in violence, whether they are christians, Muslims or Hindus should be punished by system of fast investigation and efficient judiciary, not by mobs.
If you claim to be ‘genuine’ friends of BJP can you convince the BJP for this kind of a global and liberal approach while at the same time strengthening the law and security in the country? CAN WE HAVE AN CLEAR CUT BJP DOCTRINE OF ONE INDIA FOR ALL INDIANS, without talking of Hindus, Muslims or castes?
well said S Jacob..
@ S JACOB
यहाँ कोई किसी को धर्म परिवर्तन के लिए रोकता नहीं है .इस देश में कोई भी स्वेस्छा से धर्म परिवर्तन के लिए स्वतंत्र है .लेकिन बीजेपी और हिन्दू संगठनो को सिर्फ इस बात से आप्पति है की क्रिस्चन मिशनरी गरीब लोगों की मजबूरी का फायदा उठाकर, उन्हें आर्थिक लालच देकर उनका धर्म परिवर्तन कर रहे हैं .यदि मिशनरी को गरीबों का भला करना ही है तो करे — कौन उन्हें रोकता है ? लेकिन गरीब लोगों का भला करने के लिए क्या उनका धर्म परिवर्तन करना जरुरी है ? क्या धर्म परिवर्तन किये बिना उनका भला नहीं किया जा सकता है ? यही वो बात है जिसपर बीजेपी और हिन्दू संगठन क्रिस्चन मिशनरियों पर भड़कते हैं .मेरे पास वो आदिवासी लोग गवाह हैं जो मिशनरियों की पोल खोलते हैं की किस प्रकार क्रिस्चन मिशनरी आदिवासी और गरीब लोगों का धर्म परिवर्तन करते हैं . समझे मिस्टर S JACOB
मैं तो क्रिस्चन मशीनरी को आमंत्रण देता हूँ की वो गरीब लोगों का खूब भला करे लेकिन शर्त यह है की उनका धर्म परिवर्तन किये बिना .तब क्या मशीनरी देश के गरीबों का भला करेंगे ? जवाब है—नहीं ….क्योंकि गरीबों का भला करने की आड़ में तो धर्म परिवर्तन करना ही उनका प्रमुख मकसद है .
@ S JACOB
पैसे का लालच देकर क्रिस्चन मिशनरी क्यों लोगों का धर्म परिवर्तन कर रहे हैं ? सवाल तो ये उठता है .आखिर उनका मकसद क्या है ? आपने कहा की यदि मैं पैसे के लालच में आकर धर्मं परिवर्तन करता हूँ या कोई और कारण से तो कोई क्यों मुझे रोके ? किसी को ये हक नहीं बनता की यदि मैं पैसे के लालच में या कोई और कारण से धर्म परिवर्तन करूँ तो कोई इस पर आपत्ति करे .आखिर कौन सी ऐसी वजह है की पैसे का लालच देकर क्रिस्चन मिशनरी लोगों का धर्म परिवर्तन करना चाहते हैं ? वे लोग ऐसा क्यों कर रहे हैं ?
@Krisha Tarway
Krishnaji, between what you say and between what I say there is not much disagreement.
But the disagreement only results because our understanding of global human rights are different.
You know I have travelled to different parts of the world. Even in US and in UK too, there are different groups of Christian missionaries which try to convert from one group to another. For instance the Baptists will try to convert the catholics and the salvation army will try to get new members to join their church.
In fact when I am in London and Paris, I often meet these kind of salesman type of people who want you to join their church.
I politely decline them. Some of them even tell me that I will get some benefits if I join their church, like free food every sunday etc. etc.
So what I am telling you Mr. Krishna is that as long as people do not indulge in violence and the person who gets converted is doing so out of his own free will, why should you or someone else bother about it? Why can’t we understand once and for all, that it is a person’s personal right to believe or not believe in God or to believe in any form which he thinks appropriate?
Probably by giving monetary help some christian missionaries may be trying to convert the poor people to increase their numbers. Again those who are doing so have not understood the true meaning of spirituality.
But the real question is not the motivation of those who are trying to convert.. The real question is that why the organizations like VHP are not creating a fund to help those tribals to escape from dire poverty. If they are able to escape from their extreme poverty, why will they convert for money?
Morever, if the missionaries are converting by force anywhere I will always agree with you that they should be punished under the course of law.
If the BJP says this, I am the first person to support the BJP. But I can never support BJP or anyone if they want to take away the fundamental global human right of a person to choose his own religion for his own reasons.
If Krishnaji, if you decide to become a Muslim, Christian or a Buddhist because some buddhist organization is giving you financial support to get out of poverty, then you have the full right to do so. It is your personal matter. The congress or BJP or anyone else has no right to object to it.
It is easy to say that the tribals are converting for greed or that the missionaries are showing them the greed of money, but that is an easy answer to give.
If you really investigate the actual reality you will understand that in many parts of the country there are still some disadvantaged groups of people who live in utter poverty without even having the basic means of sustenance. What should they do, when the government which is supposed to take care of them never bothers? What should they do when the people of their own religion do not bother about their welfare? Should they fast and die?
In fact, the walk into the arms of whichever groups give them something. Whether it is missionary groups or NGOs.
Instead of BJP giving lectures to those poor tribals about not converting, they should first address the root cause of conversion - utter poverty. When this utter poverty goes away, automatically the number of people who convert for money will also go away.
This is the reality. But the tragedy with some people in the RSS/BJP is that they prefer to take the ’short-cut’ of banning conversions which amounts to taking away your right to practice any religion of your choice.
Morever, it means that neither the government will help the tribals to come out of poverty, neither will it permit them to convert to some other religion to get financial help.
Having said that let us look at the larger issue. Whether the tribals remain Hindu or Christian, how does it matter? Are the christians fundamentalists like Muslims? Are christians not living in Kerala (who converted from Hinduism hundreds of years ago)? Similarly, are they not there living peacefully alongside Hindus in Goa?
In fact christians are also highly nationalistic and patriotic. People like Kurien who developed Amul diaries fighting battles with multinationals, George Fernandes who threw out coca-cola were all staunch nationalists. In fact I can vouch for it, because as I mentioned earlier, I have both Hindu and christian relatives in my family.
In fact, in countries like UK and in US in every big city, hundreds of Hindus live in peace and harmony with christians, with all their rights respected. (Of course some racial tensions because of skin colour are a different issue and not because of religion.
So my suggestion is that BJP should try to build ONE INDIA FOR ALL INDIANS irrespective of bothering about the religion of people. Because whether BJP says or does not say it, even the Muslims and Christians were ultimately all Hindus and have converted some centuries back for different reasons.
Of course, we have to inculcate respect for Indian traditions and culture and for that purpose, organizations like RSS (if they are really patriotic and not merely communal) should also recruit sikhs, christians, parsis and even Muslims into their ranks. That is the correct solution to bring the concept of ONE INDIA FOR ALL INDIANS. Can the BJP prove to be broad-minded enough to build this new strong India?
@ S JACOB
आपकी सारी बातें मैंने पढीं .बीजेपी यां आर एस एस किसी भी धर्म या समुदाय का विरोध नहीं करती है .वो सबका सम्मान करती है .यहं तो कांग्रेस और मीडिया है जो बीजेपी को बदनाम किये हुए है .बीजेपी भी चाहती है की सभी धर्म के लोग मिल जुलकर भाईचारे से रहे .लेकिन कुछ विदेशी ताक़तें हैं जो भारत को हमेशा किसी न किसी कारण से अस्थिर कर सांप्रदायिक माहौल ख़राब करना चाहती हैं .सच भी है की कुछ मुस्लिम और कुछ क्रिस्चन समुदाय के लोग विदेशी ताक़तों के बहकावे में आकर भारत में गडबडी कर यहाँ की शान्ति भंग करना चाहते हैं .कभी यहाँ के लोगों का धर्म परिवर्तन करके तो कभी मुस्लिम भाइयों का सहारा लेकर आंतकवाद फैलाकर . यदि ये सब बातें रुक जाएँ तो कोई कारण नहीं है की बीजेपी या आर एस एस किसी के खिलाफ कुछ बोले .पैसे का लालच देकर धर्म परिवर्तन करने का एक ही कारण है यहाँ की समुदाय विशेष की जनसँख्या में परिवर्तन कर भविष्य में गडबडी करना .जिसे बीजेपी और आर एस एस कभी भी बर्दास्त नहीं कर सकती .
कहा जाता है की पकिस्तान की नींव तभी राखी जा चुकी थी जब मुगलों ने देश पर कब्ज़ा किया था .आखिर अंत में जाकर क्या हुआ —भारत का विभाजन और धर्म के आधार पर पाकिस्तान का जन्म .ठीक इसी तरह अंग्रेजों ने देश पर कब्ज़ा किया और यहाँ के लोगों को क्रिस्चन बनाया या बनने पर मजबूर किया .और आज भी किसी न किसी बहाने से धर्म परिवर्तन में लगा हुआ है नतीजा आगे क्या होगा ——–.कुछ समझ में आया ? .बीजेपी और आर एस एस को इसी बात का डर है .
@ S JACOB
यहाँ देश में लोगों का धर्म परिवर्तन करके या देश में आंतकवाद फैलाकर कौन मर रहा है या परेशान हो रहा है —–हम सभी भारतीय . ….कौन है इसके पीछे ? पश्चिम में बैठे गोरे क्रिस्चन और मुस्लिम देशों में बैठे जिहादी मानसिकता के मुस्लिम लोग .हमारे मरने से गोरों क्रिस्च्नो या मुस्लिम जिहादियों का कुछ नहीं बिगड़ता .वो तो दूर बैठ कर हमारा तमाशा देखते हैं .और मरते हैं हम लोग आपस में लड़ कटकर. नुक्सान किसका ? ——– हम सबका ….मूर्ख कौन बन रहा है ? …हम सभी …मज़ा किसका ?—–विदेशों में बैठे हमारे दुश्मनों का .
Well Krishnaji, there are some things which you do say which make sense, but there are some things where you stop using your own analysis and rely on popular perceptions created by BJP ideologists.
First of all, the goals of christian missionaries and jihadis are not same. Therefore in the interest of deeper and sensible analysis, instead of clubbing them as ‘foreign forces’ let us look at them individually.
Christian missionaries want to merely increase their number. Just like movements like ISKON movement or even clubs like rotary and all that. These missionaries often are sponsered by different individuals in different parts of the developed world like Australia, UK, US etc. and they often send funds to locals to increase the number of people in their different churches. These people often think they are doing this to spread the message of Christ.
On the other hand Muslim fundamentalists have different agenda. Their agenda in India is as follows:
1. Create terrorism to force India to give up Kashmir
2. Create terrorism to take revenge against Babri demolition, Godhra riots and so on.
3. Pakistan also supports these terrorists against India because of Kashmir and to take revenge against the splitting of Bangladesh.
4. On a world wide level they want to create terror to forcibly spread the idea of a world wide Muslim caliphate.
In fact even in the west, the christian missionaries often are very much against Muslims themselves.
So these are different groups of people and their motivations are different.
However, still from your entire post you have not (in typical BJP style) acknowledged that the fundamental cause of conversion is abysmal poverty.
Instead you have wasted lot of words in trying to look into the motivations of those who try to convert, without looking at the motivations of those who do get converted.
This concept of ‘the evil foreigner’ is a pet theme which has come from BJP thinking. In the last century and even till India’s independence, this theory of evil foreigner was still relevant. Today the reality is quite different Mr. Tarway.
Today in fact, the so-called foreign countries are often managed themselves by Indians and Asians. In UK for instance, most of the departments including Police, Parliament and even government have asians in their staff. Most of the small scale businesses like restaurants etc. are run by Indians. The richest person in UK is Mr. Lakshmi Mittal, an Indian. The Tatas own the big british brands of cars.
So this big ‘filmy’ concept of a big group of evil whites sitting together to break up India by converting all Indians to Christianity is more of a BJP’s crime-thriller type of story. As mentioned above, today’s christian conversion agenda is driven by different people sitting in different parts of the globe who merely want to increase the memberships of their individual church groups. They are targetting very poor countries in Africa and Asia because these people easily get converted to escape terrible poverty.
So if the BJP is broad-minded and rational firstly they should simply deliver good governance to all the underprivileged sections of the society.
{In fact someone on this forum was also asking about China. You cannot compare China to India because countries like China and Saudi Arabia are repressive countries where there is no freedom of thought or religion. Is it our goal to become repressive countries without human rights? Certainly NO. Morever if you look at China’s poverty level and India’s poverty level we can see the difference. China today has a literacy rate of 91 % whereas India has a literacy rate of only 61%. The number of people below poverty line in India is 25 % whereas in China only 8 % people are under poverty line. See the difference.}
BJP/RSS/VHP is busy trying to demolish mosques and creating fear of Muslims and all such kind of agenda.
Instead of that if these organizations would have worked with full strength of their members to make 100 percent literacy in India and remove all terrible poverty in tribal areas and also in North east, all these problems of conversions etc. will go away on its own. Morever all countrymen of all religions and castes will respect them. But this is hard work isn’t it?
So the BJP resorts to mob violence (as in Gujarat) to reduce Muslim population and again mob violence (as in Orissa) to deal with conversions. In both cases the people who die are Indians only.
If the BJP really wants to be a more broad-based party and wants to convince every Indian that it is going to be a party with a difference and talks of atm-chintan then it should not look at these kind of short-cuts. Instead it should look at the real causes of issues and come out with real solutions which do not involve unnecessary large-scale violence and destruction of innocent fellow Indians whether those Indians are Hindus, Muslims, Christians or Sikhs.
Secondly, organizations like VHP should collect money from rich Hindus like Mr. Mittal to start a fund for those among the tribals who need money desperately to survive.
Today even among Muslims there are lots of poor Muslims. But what is the reason why conversion is not a problem with them? That is because the poorest of Muslims often get help from their nearest mosques and so avoid starvation.
Whereas in case of some tribals, there is no such help coming to them from their richer Hindu brethren.
You know Tarwayji, when we look objectively we will always find that it is easy to blame ‘outside forces’ etc. but the real fault lines are within our own countrymen.
When Warren Buffet became very rich he has donated 85 per cent of his wealth to charity. (You can check on the websites). In fact almost every super rich American is involved in Charities.
But when our Ambanis become rich, they build a huge building for themselves in Mumbai with helipad, helicopters and swimming pool and hundreds of rooms (for just 3 or 4 people who are staying), forgetting that there are still people in some parts of our country who do not have even a few grains of rice to eat in a day.
Think for yourself Mr. Tarway. If you and your entire family are on the verge of starvation, death and disease would you be bothered about your religion or would you be bothered about basic survival.
Whatever may be your answer to this question, it will help you understand why tribals convert….
I hope people like me who are neither Congressis (if you read my posts carefully I have criticised Congress also heavily for their corruption, deliberate casteism policy and minoritysm policy) nor BJP party worker, will help the BJP get into real ‘atm-chintan’, not just a cosmetic ‘atm-chintan’.
The issue with evangelical organizations is not conversion per se but induced conversion which is very difficult to prove. Any attempt made to alter the law in this matter would be amounting to a huge cries by concerned organization.
So, I dont see how anyone can solve this issue. I do have a proposal: Tax the shit out the money that enters India for religious purposes (irrespective of the religion). If someone uses more than certain amount of money for “gifts” during congregations, he should have either paid tax at source for that money or he is a tax offender and can holiday in the jail for some time.
I know that this is a rough proposal, but its merit can be discussed and it relies on 1 assumption: the money used for these activities always comes from outside India.
But on the larger point, I agree that BJP has to rein in some elements of the parivar and has to emphasize that it is a party that stands for development, security and Indian self respect all with a binding theme of Hindu ethos. A few fringe groups are bring this party to its knees. This is what a few leaders have written and expressed during the last 1-2 months and I hope these will be addressed in Chinthan Baithak.
S.Jacob, what you said is nothing new about the Ayodhya Issue. Why should Hindus always have to be on the loosing end ?. Hindus compromised on many issues . Whether it be POK, Pakistan itself or Bangladesh. There is a limit to Hindu on what they can sacrifice for Muslims. I believe that time has come for Muslims to show their generosity by allowing a temple to constructed in Ayodhya and giving up the claims on Babri Masjid. Hindus have already sacrified too much in last 400-500 years for the benefit and welfare of Muslims. Even they have sacrificed their sacred Sindhu river and fertile Punjab and a Hindu Majority Lahore to Pakistan and Muslims. Please don’t ask for more sacrifices from them. It is not fair.
Dear SJ,
“You said the goals of Missionaries and Jihadis are not same”. I would like differ on this point. Their goals are same, however the methods/means adopted by them and targets are different.
Missionaries – increase number by lure or by deceit
Jehadies – increase number by force
So they are having similar agenda. You can not compare ISKON with Christian Missionaries. Lure is not the method that ISKON adopts. Missionaries have affiliation with church, and that is why you can not separate them as individuals or groups. You can base an argument on the basis of what these people think. The Christian missionaries often are very much against Muslims themselves in the west because of the conflicting interests. As you rightly pointed out the fundamental cause of conversion is poverty that that sums it all. I don’t want to go into the foreigner concept, though many people are working in various departments of UK government, they are serving as UK citizens bound by the constitution of UK and religion has nothing to do with this. Even if Tatas and Mittals are there in UK they are there to run their business not religion. However I agree with you that “the BJP should simply deliver good governance to all the underprivileged sections of the society.”
“BJP/RSS/VHP is busy trying to demolish mosques and creating fear of Muslims and all such kind of agenda.” That is pure crap. Busy means what? Of course they have Hindutva as their agenda I mean Ideology and what is the problem with the ideology. I agree about the point you made about working towards literacy and Poverty and RSS is doing the same thing by providing education with many vanvasi kalyan ashrams and saraswati shishu mandir, but neither they get support from people nor they get money.
“So the BJP resorts to mob violence (as in Gujarat) to reduce Muslim population and again mob violence (as in Orissa) to deal with conversions. In both cases the people who die are Indians only.” Any proof of this, this is same media propaganda and that is what the missionaries are doing to divert and convert the people.
Of course I agree that rich hindus should come forward and help the poor ones. But that is the point, whom they should support, so called communal RSS/VHP or so called Secular Congress.
@ S JACOB
यदि हिन्दू समुदाय का कोई धनि व्यक्ति गरीब ट्राइबल लोगों के लिए कुछ नहीं करता तो क्रिस्चन मिशानार्यों को किसने हक दिया है की वो उनका धर्म परिवर्तन करे ? हिन्दू विश्व में किसी भी अन्य समुदाय का धर्म परिवर्तन नहीं करता .विश्व में कहीं भी ऐसा उधाहरण नहीं है की हिन्दू ने पैसे का लालच देकर किसी का धर्म परिवर्तन किया हो .फिर हिन्दू यह क्यों बर्दाश्त करे की मिशनरी इस देश के गरीबों का धर्म परिवर्तन करे .क्या क्रिस्चन लोगों की जनसँख्या पारसियों से कम है ? पारसी असल में इस देश में अल्प संख्यक हैं .जरुरत तो उनको होनी चाहिए की वो लोगों का धर्म परिवर्तन कर अपने समुदाय की संख्या में बढोतरी करे .लेकिन वो ऐसा नहीं करते .क्योंकि वो जानते हैं की इससे हिन्दुओं में आक्रोश बढेगा .और यह बात उनके खिलाफ जायेगी .क्रिस्चन ऐसा इसलिए करने की हिम्मत करते हैं की विदेशियों का उनको मदद मिलती है और संरक्षण भी .
हिन्दू विदेशों में स्वतंत्र रूप से इसलिए काम करते हैं की पश्चिम के लोग जानते हैं की हिन्दू किसी का धर्म परिवर्तन करने में विश्वास नहीं करते .इसलिए पश्चिम के लोगों को उनसे किसी बात का डर नहीं है .यदि हिन्दू चाहे तो अफ्रीकी देशों में लोगों को मदद के नाम पर वहां के लोगों का धर्म परिवर्तन कर सकते हैं लेकिन हिन्दू ऐसा नहीं करते .
पाकिस्तान एक दिन में नहीं बना उसे बनने में १००० साल का वक़्त लगा .इसी तरह धर्म के नाम पर और कोई देश बन सकता है .लेकिन यह इतना आसन नहीं है . धर्म के नाम पर और कोई देश बनने में भी १००० साल का वक़्त लग सकता है . यह बीजेपी का कोई crime थिर्लर नहीं है .यह एक कड़वा सत्य है .जो सभी भारतीय धर्म के नाम पर पकिस्तान बनते हुए देख चुके हैं .
गरीबों की सेवा करो लेकिन इस शर्त पर नहीं की उसे उसका धर्म ही बदल डालो .फिर यह सेवा नहीं स्वार्थ है किसी और ही मकसद से .
S.Jacob , there cannot be any comparison between ISKCON and Christian missionaries. ISKCON is not giving public any money to convert . It is also not demonizing other religions just like Christian missionaries demonized Hindu gods like Laxmi Devi, Hanuman to convert.
The way Christian missionaries convert people is really dubious so are the ways adopted by people like Zakir Naik to convert to Islam are dubious. Christian missionaries have vandalized Hindu temples and gods in one of the North Easten States and are busy converting people to Christianity. Zakir Naik, for the sake of converting people to Islam has manipulated Hindu scriptures and publicly fooling people.
Islam and Christianity have traditionally used Sword, intimidation to convert people into their religions. Wether it be the Spanish Incquisition or the converting South America to Christianity they have destroyed the native american religions by brute force and punishment.
Due to paucity of time, let me answer some of the strongest points.
Firstly some people talked about the difference between ISKON conversions and Missionary conversions. If I look at the broader aspects of both these conversions, it is like this:
ISKON uses the emotional bankruptcy of individuals to convert them.
Missionaries use both emotional bankruptcy and financial bankruptcy of individuals to convert them.
Both of them do want to increase numbers and welcome converts to their style of living.
In fact in the west also, sometimes some family members and friends are unhappy when one amongst them leave their culture and join ISKON. But despite this, I have never heard any Europeans/US people say that organizations like ISKON should be banned or forcibly restricted from spreading their message. {There are also some instances where a relatively peniless European faced with no one to look after him in old age joins the ISKON and gets shelter, but the instances are much less than the missionaries. However the point I am making here is that we should not be hypocritical and say that when Indian organizations do similar thing, that is not conversion, but if the US-based organization wants to increase its numbers, it is conversion..}
Because in those countries it is very clearly understood that conversion is entirely a personal matter as long as there is no physical force or cheating involved.
@Tarwayji, in fact before asking the right of people to preach their religion, you should ask yourself what right you have to interfere in the personal right of a tribal to convert to any religion he wants to.
See please do not get me wrong. I have said again and again on this forum that I believe that those who convert have not understood the true meaning of spirituality.
In fact I would be most happy if people like you Mr. Tarway or BJP/RSS/VHP give financial aid/help to tribals and bring them into Hindu fold or prevent them from converting to other religions. I will be most happy with this approach of BJP.
But the use of violence against them or making laws to take away their fundamental right to choose any religion (whether for money or for any other reason) shows that BJP is an organization which believes in coercion/violence/force. I can never agree to that and I hope the sensible ‘friends’ of BJP will impress upon them to find law-abiding solutions to these problems.
Similarly @SKG, about the Ram temple issue, I would have been very happy if the BJP was able to convince the Muslims to give up their mosque. If the Muslims did not agree to that then the BJP/Hindu organizations should have shown generosity and build a grand grand temple next to the mosque.
That would have shown the great tolerant spirit of Hinduism to the whole world. It would also have shown to the whole world how Muslims are intolerant to other religions (for instance in Saudi Arabia especially in the Muslim holy cities no other places of worship are allowed). I personally do not think Lord Rama would have himself minded very much if his temple was made a few metres away from another mosque.
Instead what did the BJP/VHP guys do.. They used the power of their mob and violence to demolish a historic building, just to prove that ‘we are more powerful’; just to show ‘who is the boss’.
That kind of violence placed these BJP leaders in the same category as the taliban which demolished buddhist statues. (Of course all of us can argue that taliban is much more brutal and worse (which is correct), but this single act of demolition puts BJP also in that category of violent destroyers of ancient structures).
All that I am saying is that there are solutions to problems, whether it is conversion or whether it is Ram temple or Muslim terrorism, without involving indiscriminate mob violence while adopting a broad-minded approach.
Somehow, the BJP in the years before has shown more of a penchant towards violence, intimidation and coercion through law, rather than adopting a humanitarian and broad-based approach which could win them respect of every Indian.
****By the way, I am surprised that till now no one has mentioned anything about my positive idea of creating a fund by organizations like VHP to aid the needy and utterly poor marginalized sections of society to help them overcome destitute poverty.
(On the other hand, I find a somewhat negative proposal for taxation. I call it negative, because taxation might hinder the religious organizations (who will surely find their way around it with the help of unscrupulous lawyers/tax consultants), but it will certainly not help the tribals and utterly marginalized landless labourers of our country to come out of their poverty. Morever, the money collected by tax is often spent by corrupt politicians/civil servants for their luxury, foreign trips etc.
If money is taxed at source, no one can escape it irrepective of their unscupulous quotient. And India does have a dcent monetory policy to track inward money movement. And YES, the idea is to curb these religious organization immaterial of which religion they stand for. Let the Govt get hold of the money collected through taxes and let it spend in whatever way it likes, create a fund for tribals or any other way. The only purpose of this tax is to reduce incentive for religious organization to make religious offerings in India *beyond a certain limit*.
And I would like to add further that negative propaganda by these so called religious organizations has to be clipped and shown its place. There are certain things law cannot control but money can. We can also discuss about the social fabric and structure of Indian society, but all these cannot be talked in quantitave terms and each individual can have their own opinion so I am not going there.
An may I add one more thing, if ISCKON is doing something overseas, it is none of our business. The respective country has to soverignly deal with those issues.
But if ISCKON or any other organization is cooverting people using inducements INSIDE India, then yeah we can debate that.
S.Jacob,First of all you are bankrupt of ideas as you can’t even spell word correct . It is not ISKON but ISKCON which stands for International society for Krishna Conciousness.
Next thing people go through emotinal and philosphical crisis in their lifes. ISKCON is helping these kind of people without expect any thing in return.
Missionaries are not really addressing emotional issues any more in India. If you see Kandhamal incident you will notice this. They are only using people’s poverty to convert people into Christianity.
Muslims can never be convinced by BJP to give up Babri Masjid land. If they can be convinced of a peaceful resolution, they should have agreed to it long time ago much before BJP came into lime light . BJP came to limelight in 80s. Babri Masjid dispute has been going for atleast 200 hundred years . It existed when British was ruling India and they had to create fenced area for Hindus to come and worship within a limited space in Babri Masjid Complex.BJP also said that they are willing to provide a means of resolving this issue through negotiations between the VHP and Babri Masjid commitee. Atleast some thinking is going in BJP on this issue unlike Congress which is exploiting the vote bank politics.
The only point I can agree with you is that Rich Hindus should create a charity organization to help poor Hindus who are becoming the subjects of Missionary conversions.
S.Jacob, for 1000 years outsiders which include both Christians and Muslims have exploited the generosity of Hindus. Expecting more and more from them proves that you are not interested in giving any thing to Hindus but you want to take away from Hindus of what they have. Your comments are more about what Hindus should do, what VHP should and what BJP should do rather than what Christian missionaries should be doing about Conversions and what Muslims should be doing on the Ayodhya Issue.
Mohan, S.Jacob’s conversion of ISKCON and Missionaries is totally a wrong comparison. They both are on different level. Missionaries are getting away with lot of non-sense in Kerala. The rapde and murder of Nuns in recent times is classic example of high-handedness of what Church is doing in Kerala. S.Jacob is complaining about BJP what it used Muscle power to destroy a historic building. What church is doing the same thing in Kerala in destroying the evidences against fathers and the involvement of Church , threatening nuns if they open their mouths against Church. Involvement of Church in politics is altogether another subject matter.
Hi SKG,
Probably you are right, but if we debate things this way, neither of us will benefit and there will not be any sort of agreement…What do you think? Yes I do agree with things being said by you to some extent, but I would like to put forward my points at a higher level so that we avoid the mudslinging and get to the actual issue.
I also agree ISKCON is a wrong comparison as what he is attributing to the organization isnt happening in India. What I would like to see here is a honest debate and not a routine explosive propaganda to which I dont prefer to respond.
On the point, the BJP as a party always believes in the Hindu ethos as they call it “Sarv dharma samabhav”. But what these propagandists are doing is equating any violent act by a Hindu to the BJP and then maligning the party to no ends. For example Sri Ram Sene contested against the BJP in Karnataka elections, but these people dont seem to know it and prefer to be ignorant about this by choice. Yes, there are a few fringe elements creating nuisance, but who doesnt have those sort of people?
Whenever these issues (like conversions, gay sex) are raised people immediately jump out and say “Oh my freedom is being curbed”. My question is do you have any freedom in the first place? An small elitist group takes decisions on your behalf on issues you never knew existed, you cannot own the shares of companies that belong to your nation, you cannot be a free thinker and say I believe in capitalism for ex, then you cant event contest an election for saying that (you need to be a socialist to contest election in India). So I dont accept any argument which vouches for the peoples freedom as this much vaunted freedom is non existant.
The BJP should seek a ban on religious conversions due to coercion, and provision of financial incentives. The BJP should clearly state that it stands for Article 25 of the Indian Constitution which says all persons are equally entitled to freedom of conscience and the right freely to profess, practice and propagate religion. BJP should accept proselytizing but seek to limit aggressive improper and unethical proselytizing. Firstly forced conversion which could be due to coercion or threats should be strictly banned. It should be improper to try to impose one’s beliefs on a ‘captive audience’, where the listeners have no choice but to be present for example in the case of teachers in the classroom, army officers to their inferiors, prison officers in prison, medical staff in hospitals, so as to avoid impinging on the rights of others. It should not be proper to offer money, work, housing, education, medical assistance or other material inducements as a means of persuading people to adopt another religion. It should be clearly pointed that this does not limit a Church from going to a village starting a hospital or school, and proselytize to get new converts. However they should not deny those seeking medical or educational assistance if they chose not to attend sermons. Conversion is a controversial subject even beyond India. In May 2006 the Vatican and the World Council of Churches (WCC) launched a three-year joint study project aimed at developing a shared code of conduct on religious conversion. In the interreligious consultation on “Conversion – Assessing the Reality” organised by the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, Vatican City, and the Office on Interreligious Relations & Dialogue of the World Council of Churches Lariano (Italy), May 12-16, 2006 one of their recommendations was that Humanitarian work should be carried out with no ulterior motives and without taking advantage of the vulnerable. Indian Christians of the Bangalore Initiative for Religious Dialogue (BIRD) proposed the following amendment to Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights – “No individual or organization may seek to convert an individual or group of individuals, including minors or individuals of limited cognitive abilities, formally or informally, from one religion to another by offering financial or other material incentives, through physical, mental, or emotional coercion, or through threats or intimidation of any kind.” The issue of limiting aggressive proselytizing should resonate with a large number of Indians. Christians pastors have been vocal in their opposition when attempts are made to limit aggressive proselytizing. But it is important for BJP to have a dialogue with them and seek common ground through discussions. Differences of opinion should not be solved through violence and it is vital that the BJP sends this message to some of the radical Hindu groups who have resorted to violence from time to time. Let us not forget that the apostle of peace Mahatma Gandhi was opposed to aggressive proselytizing.
Exactly Mr. Kho.
I find that somehow your comments show that you are more sensitive to global human rights concerns than many of the so-called ‘friends’ of BJP who seem more worried about the ’spellings’.
Anyway, I do not have anything against them too, probably, because of long years of consistent brain-washing by some extremist elements they have lost their sense of intellectual discrimination.
In fact, as you rightly pointed out conversions of any section by force, cheating should be treated as a crime. Secondly conversion of vulnerable sections whether they are mentally retarded or minors etc. should be also considered similar to sexual relations with minors and should be punished as such.
But the BJP’s tendency to take law into their own hands using mobs is a disturbing trend showing a fascist and Nazi type mentality.
Some of my so-called ‘friends’ of BJP have not understood certain fundamental things. For instance someone on this forum keeps repeating that ‘christians and Muslims have exploited the generosity of Hindus’. This statement itself shows the narrow mindedness and extremism of some of these elements who still somehow believe that Indian belongs to Hindus and that the Christians and Muslims are living in India because of generosity of Hindus.
This statement itself shows a complex.
First of all this writer should know that India belongs to every citizen of India irrespective of his faith.
So to say that one group of citizens of India are living due to the generosity of another itself shows that this person is narrow minded and unfit to understand what is ‘citizenship’ and ‘human rights’.
Secondly he also fails to understand that since most christians and Muslims were Hindus only at one point of time (after all, Hinduism is a way of life not a religion, unlike Islam or Parsi or Christianity), therefore he forgets that Muslims or Christians were also Hindus and as such they also have equal rights on India.
Because of this mind-set among some people in the BJP, some of these elements do not hesitate to destroy an ancient mosque without second thought or think twice about starting a pogram to cleanse Gujarat of its minority population.
I would even say that this condescending and narrow-minded mentality is against the real ‘Hindu’ ethos.
In fact, this narrow minded mindset which exists in many BJP/RSS member’s mind itself is the main problem which makes them not see the problems of India in terms of ‘ONE INDIA’ but sees it from the Prism of ‘Hindu interests’ and ‘other parties interests’. So therefore I strongly believe that neither Congress nor BJP is fit to rule India. The congress because of its policy of divide and rule and BJP due to its policy of seeing everything through the prism of ‘Hindus’ and ‘non-Hindus’.
I think we need a third party of broad minded professionals who can give good governance without assualting the freedoms of people and taking away their rights one by one. {In the name of Islam the rulers of middle-east have taken away all freedoms of people, the BJP rulers want to take away the freedoms in the name of ‘culture’, without knowing that true culture is not the one forced upon people, but true culture is what exists in their thoughts.}
@SKG and Mohan
I can see SKG that you seem quite agitated by my responses. However you are correct that my spelling was wrong. Thanks for bringing it to my notice.
Let us look at the points which you have raised one by one :
1. If ISKCON uses emotional bankruptcy of people to bring them into their fold and missionaries use financial bankruptcy to bring people into their fold (provided that in both the cases, the people who choose to convert do so out of their own free will), I do not see any big difference in the approaches.
2. @ Mohan, it seems that Mr. Mohan has still not understood the principle of non-interference. He says that ‘if ISKCON or any other organization is using inducements in India, we should debate that’.
In fact I have been harping on this point only for so long. Why should we debate that if the people who convert make their choice freely (even if they are taking the financial inducements)?
Why should you not give them the freedom to choose whether or not to convert after accepting financial inducements?
You know Mr. Mohan, the flaw in your argument is simply this. {Quite unknowingly many of these arguments sound sadly, similar to the arguments of Islamic rulers. In fact some days back I had met a Muslim person with whom I was discussing about why Islam does not give freedoms. I asked him a simple question. If I want to drink beer in Saudi Arabia, why would it be considered illegal? Immediately this guy started telling me that alchohol is not good and that is why it is prohibited etc. I told him only one thing. I told him that I am not a drunkard, but the fact that Saudi rulers force people not to touch beer is a repression of their freedom. Let people make their own choice. Why should the rulers decide whether people can drink or not drink, whether people can see this movie or not, whether people can do this or not? If you want, the Saudi rulers can write articles in papers, can write articles in Magazines and urge people to quit drinking. That is totally fine. But employing force is not fine.}
So Mr. Mohan your argument is also similar to the arguments by Islamists. You and many so-called ‘friends’ of BJP believe that conversions should be stopped by force if it involves inducements or financial incentives.
I believe that takes away the right of the poor tribal to change his religion (maybe for finance or another reason) and as such is violative of his rights.
Yes, the BJP should try to educate these people not to convert and also ensure development of these people through governmental schemes so that they are free from the clutches of terrible poverty, but taking away their choices just to preserve BJP’s idea of ‘what is good’ is totally anti-democratic. It is very much similar to the Saudi Arabian (and most other middle-east rulers’) attitudes where they think that people cannot be trusted to make their own choices.
@SKG about the issues raised by him about the church in Kerala, I totally agree with you. As mentioned earlier, since I have both Hindus and christians among my family relatives and as a liberal I can appreciate both points of view. In fact I was quite happy to see that the truth is finally uncovered and some of the wolves who are dressed like priests (and in reality are sex maniacs) are exposed. They should be punished as per the rule of law. The church officials who were involved in these acts of destroying evidences bribery etc. should be arrested and punished.
Because as I said earlier, we need to build an India where real crime (committed by any Indian whether Hindu, Muslim or Christian or any other) should be punished by the due process of law and the freedom of innocent people, women and disadvantaged sections of the society should be protected.
Things like whether a person should go to a pub, or whether he/she should celebrate valentine’s day, whether he/she should convert by taking money, whether he/she likes to be homosexual etc. are purely personal choices as long as the person is knowing what he is doing.
Of course we may not like these above-mentioned activities but in my opinion, force should not be used to prevent these. We have to educate people and write articles to bring people to discover spirituality and heritage of our country.
When great gurus like BKS Iyengar and Swami Vivekananda went to America do you think people listened to them or became their followers because the American government forced them to stop drinking, or stop smoking or stop eating beef or to stop seeing women or to stop converting ?
THE ANSWER IS A BIG NO. IN FACT THE PEOPLE WHO FOLLOWED THESE GURUS DID SO ON THEIR OWN. THEY DISCOVERED THE SPIRITUALITY OF INDIA ON THEIR OWN, ALTHOUGH THEY WERE BORN AND BROUGHT UP IN AMERICA. In the same way, people of our country should be allowed to make their own choices towards spirituality and cultural heritage, not the BJP or Shiv Sena style of forcing people not to celebrate valentine’s day by violence or by making laws.
LAWS OF A COUNTRY SHOULD ONLY EXIST FOR THE SAKE OF PROTECTION OF RIGHTS, LIBERTIES, PROPERTIES OF INDIVIDUALS, NOT TO TAKE AWAY THEIR CHOICES.
Only dictatorships, intolerant Islamic states and communist states use the laws to take away the choices of their people. I think India should never go into the group of these countries in the name of ‘culture protection’.
Hi SJ,
Rants and propaganda apart.
YOU SAY: Why should you not give them the freedom to choose whether or not to convert after accepting financial inducements?
I SAY: Because the law of the land prevents you from doing so. For example, you want to shoot somebody, who is preventing from doing that? This argument is fallacious at best and moronic at worst.
YOU SAY: So Mr. Mohan your argument is also similar to the arguments by Islamists. You and many so-called ‘friends’ of BJP believe that conversions should be stopped by force if it involves inducements or financial incentives.
I SAY: Dont be judgemental. You are NO ONE to make comparisions or judgements specially when you dont understand the basics of Indian law. The law of the land states that any conversion based on inducements is a crime. Period. Now its another matter that you think this law is wrong, please go into a court, argue your case for freedom, win it and amend it. Thats all.
YOU SAY: Yes, the BJP should try to educate these people not to convert and also ensure development of these people through governmental schemes so that they are free from the clutches of terrible poverty, but taking away their choices just to preserve BJP’s idea of ‘what is good’ is totally anti-democratic.
I SAY: People get what they deserve in a capitalistic society. They should have the drive and zeal to move up the ladder. Governmental schemes like NREGA or reervations at large inturn perpetuate poverty by making easy money availble to to people and remove the incentive for them to look into other avenues. The Government can only act as an enabler and set up a policy or regulation framework. Trying to control things artificially by distributing money or giving reservations can pnly take a society into creative bankruptcy.
YOU SAY: LAWS OF A COUNTRY SHOULD ONLY EXIST FOR THE SAKE OF PROTECTION OF RIGHTS, LIBERTIES, PROPERTIES OF INDIVIDUALS, NOT TO TAKE AWAY THEIR CHOICES.
I SAY: Wow, so much of emphasis through CAPS. For once I agree. Government must ensure protection of rights and freedom of people which is infringed by quacks (as per the current law they are) who pay money to snatch their freedom of religion and force another religion on them. I am not talking about any specific religion here. So you should not be worried since the law is the same for all religions.
One question: When you talk of freedom, what is it you want….religious freedom, economic freedom, social or what…can you please define it for me?
I expect a sane, unjudgemental and caliberated response without propaganda.
Hi SJ,
In an earlier post YOU SAY: I think we need a third party of broad minded professionals who can give good governance without assualting the freedoms of people and taking away their rights one by one
Sure, India is a democracy and if your idea has great support among people, you will be ruling the country and you can implement your agenda. I wish you luck!
@ Jacob,
I assume you lost your job(lukin at the length of ur posts..) in orissa coz of VHP & their ilk and hence the frustration at display! did u say(i didn’t go thru all ur words of wisdom) ISKCON converts foreigners by force? for god sake why on god’s green earth wud they do tht? the converts via ISKCON to hinduism are 100% volunteers– i have spoken to many in the streets of glasgow beggin/raisin funds before diwali and they are all in love with lord krishna unlike the fabricated christians. We are not Nazis(who were fanatic christians) or Jehadis(who are fanatic muslims) here at FOBJP - so please dont give us that holier than thou attitude!
S.Jacob, Christian evangelists and Islamic jihadis are worse than Nazis . You are a Nazi for sure. Instead of condemning them you are behaving like a Nazi by indirectly attacking me. yes, Christians and Muslims have definitely exploited the generosity of Hindus for 1000 years. Is your brain dead that you can’t see this simply truth ?.
S.Jacob, you have no guts to speak the truth. What christian evangelists are doing in Kerala is abominable ?. The murder and rape of Sister Abhaya and the involvement of Church in silencing people who are speaking the dirty truths of church and the government of Kerala helping the church covering up their dirty acts are all sacred acts to your brain. Search your heart truth fully and you will find the truth .Almost all the churches are no longer following the true word of Jesus Christ.
@ S JACOB
एक तो चर्च लोगों का अवैध तरीके से धर्म परिवर्तन के काम में लगे हुए हैं और विरोध करने पर उल्टा हमें ही फासिस्ट कह रहे हैं .यह तो वही बात हो गयी उल्टा चोर कोतवाल को डांटे.
There is a big difference how church is converting people in Christianity and how ISKCON is preaching . Traditionally, people accepted religion based on thorough philosophy and based on their inner feelings and their conscience. This is what ISKCON is doing. It is not using dubious ways to preach the Philosophy . It doesn’t have a Mass program to convert thousands of people. On the other hand, Pope from the Vatican have a dubious mission of converting entire Asia into Christianity. How can the so called head of the Christianity forget that Asians too are human beings and they have their conscience and they just can’t be converted into christianity using dubious ways. If he is so divine and interested in preaching the love of god , then he should focus on South America and North America and rejuvinate the true message of christ in these continents. Most of the American don’t even to goto Church any more and they believe that Capitalism is the way to become happy.
S.Jacob, you have no right to say that friends of BJP or any body else who is supporting BJP is an extremist.
Infact you are an extremist who is supporting extremist religions like Islam and Christiantity. Christianity has become an extremist religion recently by converting people into Christianity by dubious ways . It has no tolerance for other faiths in South America and it destroyed all the native American religions . To me that is extremism. The acts of people like Hernan cortes,the spanish conquistadors, the spanish inquisition are all the extreme acts of religious fanaticism.
S.Jacob, can you preach your good sermon of not doing ethnic cleansing to the Kashmiri Huriyat and Kashmiri people who are intent on destroying the remants of the Hindu culture in Kashmir. Can you preach to them your great sermon to rebuild all the destroyed temples in Kashmir ?. Can you preach your sermon to them to allow all the kashmiri Pandits back into the valley ?. Can you preach to them the same secularirsm which you are preaching to us , to them and allow their Hindu brethern to live and coexist with them.
If it is not the generosity of Hindus, India wouldn’t have been declared a secular country . Can’t you see this simple truth ?. It is because of the tolerance of Hindus, Gandhi, Nehru were able to impose Secularism on Hindus who constitute 85% of India in 1947.
Just for one Mosque being destroyed in Ayodhya there was so much fuss and cry you are making on this website. What should Hindus be doing now for all the great temples like Kashi, Mathura being converted systematically into Mosques. Can you make the same fuss about the numerous temples being destroyed in Pakistan and Bangladesh just on the pretext of one Mosque being destroyed in Ayodhya.
dear skg-ji… dont you think it is time to think in more broader terms… instead of temples, mosques.. why dont we say places of worship.. and instead of hindus, muslims why dont we say Indians.. or even better.. human beings.. it becomes much more clearer and neutral…
for eg- instead of saying, so and so mosque and so and so temples are being destroyed.. you can say people are destroyoing places of worship or places of religious importance.. which means all people who destroy such places are guilty of the same crime.. no question of bias and no question of taking sides..
similarly instead of saying.. so many hindus were killed or so many muslims died.. why not say (not just say but think also) that the people who died are human beings and those who killed them are murderers….
hope you get the point..
skg-ji.. another thing.. gandhi and nehru were not so very strong that they could “impose” secularism on hindus.. hindus by default are seculars (of course except those poor brainwashed fellows coming out of some madrassa type shakhas..
)
Hi BI,
“hindus by default are seculars ” - Pray can you tell me where did the caste system come from and who is exploiting it for electoral gains? Or is it that you consider being castiest is not the same as being insecular?
One more thing, I get a strange feeling that you are landing in the wrong place. This is site for people who have something constructive to offer to the BJP which I might add is a Right of Center Party.
Now, being the biggest intellectual I think you might be well versed with Center-Right politics. If you think this is not your cup of tea and if you think BJP is the root of all problems that India faces, please start a party and deal with the system. Clowning here will help none.
Truth must be spoken as it is for the welfare of all the humanity. BI, appreciate your intellectual analysis. I can’t twist the truth to write things that will please other people. Whatever is written by me is what has happened in India. Let the facts stand by themselves and truth be revealed to the public.
The cast system was created to a limited extent during the British era and the present day politicians are fully exploiting them to get political mileage .
Hi Jacob could you plse answer the following for me.I am sure that you would have encountered such queries before.
1.Dont you think poverty is the biggest attraction for prosyletizers?Inducements work only in poverty.
2.Why isnt islamic countries so attractive for conversions?
3.Why did Mother Teresa start her missionary works among the poor in Kolatta while there was greater poverty in Dhaka.?
4.Dont you think that govt control over temple funds in ’secular’ india is to keep the Hindu community poor and make them targets of inducements for prosyletizers.
Islamic countries will burn the missionaries if they try to convert them like the way they do in India. Haven’t we seen the burning of christian churches recently in Pakistan, killing of christians in African country ?. Even pope got rebuked in Turkey for saying some against Islam. So, Christians will never goto a Islamic country. However, under the auspicious blessings of congress party, Christians are actively and dubiously converting dalits to Christianity. YSR’s son-in-law is actively preaching in A.P converting people to christianity by making false claims and promises.
Mohan,
In an earlier post you said “The law of the land (I assume you meant whole of India) states that any conversion based on inducements is a crime. Period”
Can you please point me to a link where I can read up that law? My question then is - why are different states drawing up anti-conversion laws when such a federal law already existed?
Hi Kho, You are partly right in the assumption you made. The constitution grants the right to freedom of religion which states ( I qoute from article 25 of our constitution) :
“Subject to public order, morality and health and to the other provisions of this Part, all persons are equally entitled to freedom of conscience and the right freely to profess, practice and propagate religion.”
Now the issue with this article as with many others is what is morality and public order? Morality and public order are the restrictions which this law enforces. Usually conversions with inducements are legally argued as immoral and violating this freedom of religion granted to us in spirit if not in letter.
Hence the states themselves (both BJP & Congress ruled states) have come up with more explicit laws. But even these laws are open to interpretation and can be debated upon. Hence I posted on this forum that law cannot be a solution for this.
Hope I made sense.
The US commission on international religious freedom[USCIRF] has placed India on its ‘watch list’ claiming a disturbing increase in communal violence against religious minorities and our government has reacted by expressing its regret on USCIRFs decision.I think the issue is larger.Why a tolerant,responsible and peace loving nation is being branded along with communal nations?. Is it not the result of Hindu bashing being carried out by CNN-IBN and NDTV?. Is it not the result of spreading half truths? .
The law which states that ‘for every action there is equal and opposite reaction’ seems to be redundant.on the other hand for every reaction there seems to be more than equal reaction.
@ B R SHETTY
आपने सही कहा की कुछ पश्चिमी मानसिकता वाले चैनल भारत की छवि ख़राब कर रहे हैं जिसके लिए CNN-IBN and NDTV जिम्मेद्दार हैं .विदेशियों की गुलामी करने वाले ये चैनल पश्चिमी देशों से पुरस्कार पाने की लालच में भी ये सब कर रहे हैं .इस पुरस्कार पाने की होड़ में बहुत से बुद्धिजीवी वर्ग के अन्य लोग भी हैं .
Hindu Bashing should be stopped by all means.
Mohan,
Yes you make sense. But I think the key is to come up with unambigous laws. For example:
It should be okay for a Church to go to a village and do social work (hospital, school etc) and preach to get new converts. But it should not be okay if the Church makes the social assistance contingent on attending sermons. In other words they cannot say you get this job or get medicine only if you listen to this sermon or pray with us etc.
Without clear laws that we all can agree I cannot see a solution to this. I am afraid violent means to solve this problem does not help and further weakens BJP.
We may say that Hindutva means cultural nationalism and does not denote religious or theocratic nationalism. But the fact is to a large number of Indians the word suggests Hindu communalism.
So here is a question for this group. Why not retain the basic concept of cultural nationalism but replace the word Hindutva with something like Bharatiya or DharmaRajya. The latter words have less of a religious connotation but mean the same. Here are some words from Mr. Advani
“Throughout my political life, I have emphasised that Hindutva stands for cultural nationalism, and does not denote religious or theocratic nationalism. The term ‘Hindu’ in Hindutva has a cultural, and not a religious connotation. It does not lend itself to a narrow ‘for-Hindus-only’ notion of Indian nationhood, which stems essentially from an underlying cultural oneness. Some of us call this sense of nationhood, Hindutva; Pandit Deendayal Upadhyaya called it Bharatiyata. Some others may call it Indianness. I see no difference between the three terms; they are interchangeable.”
http://www.lkadvani.in/eng/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=378&Itemid=344
Gurudev Rabindranath Tagore invoked the prayer for ‘Eka Dharmarajya hable a Bharate’ (Let there be one Dharma Rajya, a just and moral order, in India)
http://www.lkadvani.in/eng/content/view/381/349/
So again why not replace the word Hindutva with Bharatiyata or DharmaRajya.
@Mohan
Sorry that I could not write in the column for some days due to work pressures.
Although you arguments seem to be rational they are only so on the surface.
Let us look at your argument about conversions.
You believe that taking away the right of a poor tribal to convert should be taken away by law.
And you compare it to a crime of shooting by saying “For example, you want to shoot somebody, who is preventing from doing that?”
This itself shows, that you have not understood the fundamental of what is called ‘human rights’.
Both the situations are totally different. When you shoot someone, you are taking away the right of someone to live, without his consent.
On the other hand, if a tribal converts to another religion after accepting money (or for any other reason), he is not taking away anyone else’s right to do anything. He is only exercising his own supreme choice.
By making a law against the freedom of choosing a religion, the BJP government has shown a fundamental disregard for the right of a person to choose his own religion for whatever reason he thinks fit.
Of course, I would say that if a person forces another person to convert he is doing a crime and here I would fully agree with you, because forcing another person to convert is similar to shooting. It amounts to taking away that person’s right to practice his ‘own religion’.
I am totally surprised that a person like you who seems intellectual in his use of language, has not understood the dynamics of this simple difference.
The principle of human freedom to choose is paramount in human rights.
Now regarding the question about freedoms, if you do not know the meaning of fundamental freedoms then I do pity you.
Fundamental freedoms means freedom of choice in religion, freedom of thought, freedom of expression, freedom of protection of your rights and economic freedom in terms of availability of opportunities for economic advancements.
Anyway, perhaps your confusion about the concept of freedoms is perhaps leading you to get confused between ’shooting someone else’ and ‘an individual choosing any religion he/she wants’.
Just because some government makes a law does not mean it is morally right and we should accept it.
When Nazis were ruling Germany, there were numerous laws enacted against jews. Similarly during the emergency of Indira Gandhi many laws were enacted curbing the fundamental freedoms of Indian citizens.
So do not use the word ‘PERIOD’ after any laws which curb fundamental human rights. Any law against conversion which takes away the rights of a person to change his religion (as long as he does it out of his own free wish, whether for some financial gain or anything else) is his/her own personal wish and any government which takes away this right is immoral and repressive.
What should be done is that the government can educate the people about the dangers of conversion for the sake of money and Hindu organizations should create a fund for those suffering from abysmal poverty. These are the only morally acceptable ways of dealing with the problem.
I am not replying to any posts of SKG, because he is calling me Nazi, pro-christian, extremist, pro-Islam and all that. That itself shows that either he has not read my several posts, where I have very clearly, ruthlessly and unambiguously criticised Islam, Christianity etc. or probably my posts are creating a slow introspection in his views and this is his way of expressing resistance. Another reason could be probably that SKG has been programmed (due to his long assocation with some people with extremist thinking) to automatically consider anyone who criticises BJP as pro-Islam, pro-christianity etc. etc.
In fact, because I am not allied to any groups (whether religious or political) I am able to argue for freedoms and also criticize any religious group or political group, unlike many so-called ‘friends’ of BJP who are willing to criticise every group and movement in the world, except the BJP itself.
If you go through this posts, especially of people like SKG, you will find criticisms of Congress, Christianity, Islam, Media, Secular Hindus, Missionaries etc. etc. but never any ’self-criticism’ of BJP itself.
And this is what some of the ‘friends’ of BJP call ‘atma-chintan’…. I find this term quite funny….
@ S JACOB
अब आप मोहन को अपनी ntellectual की घुट्टी पिला रहे हैं .भई ,आप पर इल्जाम इतना भारी है की अब आप सफाई देते फिर रहे हैं .
This post for Mr. Ganesh.
__________________________
Dear Ganesh,
You had asked me some questions, are as follows (I am cutting and pasting your post below);
“Hi Jacob could you plse answer the following for me.I am sure that you would have encountered such queries before.
1.Dont you think poverty is the biggest attraction for prosyletizers?Inducements work only in poverty.
2.Why isnt islamic countries so attractive for conversions?
3.Why did Mother Teresa start her missionary works among the poor in Kolatta while there was greater poverty in Dhaka.?
4.Dont you think that govt control over temple funds in ’secular’ india is to keep the Hindu community poor and make them targets of inducements for prosyletizers.”
My views on your questions:
To the first question.
1. Yes indeed you are correct. Many of the proselytizers are attracted by poorer countries where they could bring people into their fold.
There are many christian groups which exist and want to bring people into their fold. My personal view is that people who look at religion as some sort of ‘club’ where they want to increase members by giving some financial incentive, have not understood the true meaning of spirituality. For instance, I have seen that there are many sports clubs or cultural clubs which follow this approach to increase their membership by giving financial incentives etc. Many of the so-called ‘christian ministries’ also behave in a similar fashion. However my view is that just like every person has a right to join any cultural organization which he wants, similarly every one person has the human right to join any religious group which he wants, even if he is doing it for financial gain. {Provided he/she is clearly aware of the consequences of his/her action}.
Coming to your second question.
2. Islamic countries are not attractive for conversions. Even an organization like ISKCON will not be allowed to distribute its free literature to people. Forget conversions- most Islamic countries are highly repressive. For instance in Saudi arabia, you cannot worship in a temple or church, you cannot see a movie, you cannot have a glass of beer. Women are forced to wear purdahs, whether they like it or not.
Now this is what I call the worst form of society, where individual’s human rights are curbed in the name of Islam.
So let us not look at Islamic nations or nations like North Korea or China as examples worth emulating.
So do not look at countries which are much worse than us and compare our country to them. Do not look at countries like Saudi or Pakistan and say that ’see them, why we should not be like them’.
3. Regarding your question on Mother Theresa, she did not start her work in Dhaka because when she probably landed in India, India was still undivided.
YOu know Ganesh, because I come from a mixed family with both Hindu and Christian relatives, I have been fortunate to have a close view of many organizations connected with both religions. For instance I have myself attended some meetings of RSS in some temple premises. I was impressed by their sense of patriotism and some of their values like respect for women etc. {However I have also got my disagreements with this movement, which is another issue}. Similarly I have also been to a centre of Mother Theresa (in Central India) and spent half a day to see the work that they do. I suggest you do likewise. It might be an eye-opener for you. I had a frank discussion with some of the nuns regarding conversion. I asked them “Do you bring all the destitutes or orphans and make them christians? Do you only bring poor people to your centre if they accept christianity?”
So this nun frankly told that yes, there are some inmates who do choose to take part in the christian prayers etc. in course of time. Now this nun showed me the various types of inmates they had. Some inmates were children who were thrown into dust-bins probably by mothers who did not want these children for various reasons. Then there were also lepers who were brought and treated. Then they were a few mental patients who were roaming the streets of the city. Similarly some were beggars who had contracted diseases like TB etc.
Now I also noticed that some of the inmates also were wearing crosses around their necks. When I asked the nun about this, she said that the inmate had asked for the cross, while worship was going on.
So if you have a picture that probably these lunatics, orphans etc. are being converted by giving them money, I think you are not getting an exact picture of human psychology. Conversions do happen, but it happens probably because some of these people do slowly get influenced by the service provided by these nuns in looking after them and start getting integrated with them.
Anyway, this was the impression that I got. Maybe it is right or maybe it is wrong. One could argue that the nun who answered my question might not be telling the truth.
But I think Ganesh, the best thing for you to do is to visit one centre for yourself and get a first hand impression, rather than forming your impression by listening to me or to anyone else. (Of course having said all this, let me also clarify that I am not a blind supporter of any activities done by so-called christian groups. For instance recently in Kerala there was some scandal regarding the killing of some nun and many christian priests were involved in destroying evidence etc. Needless to say they should be punished as per the law of the land.)
4. Regarding the fourth issue you have mentioned, my grasp on the subject of government control of temple funds is not sufficient. So I may not be in a position to answer your question.
However my view point is that the government should not get involved in the business of temple or mosque or church. These things should be left in the hands of gurus/priests/religious organizations. In fact the government should treat matters of religion as the private matter of an individual.
I am in favour of a common law for every citizen of this country.
I hope you are satisfied by my answers.
S.Jacob all your concerns are understood. if you are really concerned about changes in BJP , we welcome them without attaching any strings to it. I am not supporting the violence in the name of relgion when BJP is seen involved in it. Also, no party is perfect so don’t expect perfection from them.
However, I have no sympathy for fraud christian missionaries converting people by giving them money and painting Hindus as worshippers of Satan. Hindus are not Satan worshippers. Christian dubious missionaries should stop their dubious conversions . Christian missionaries should stop playing with the beliefs of Hindus.
@SKG,
Neither do I have any sympathy for such dubious christian missionaries.
Having said that, I am totally against violent tactics employed by VHP/BJP mobs as happened in Gujarat or Orissa or even regarding Babri Masjid.
But Hinduism is generally tolerant of people attacking itself. There lies the greatness of Hinduism. Recently (one or two years back), DMK president Mr. Karunanidhi attacked Lord Rama and even called him a drunkard. However other intellectuals attacked Mr. Karunanidhi’s views.
So this is the tradition of true Hinduism. Liberal thinking tradition, much before it happened in the western civilization.
The present trend of mobs/violent groups trying to enforce things is similar to the Muslim taliban type of extremism.
If some groups attack Hinduism, then at an intellectual level the attacks can be repelled.