Article 377 – Food for Thought
In an opinion piece titled “Shy society. Shameless debate“, S Gurumurthy writes: “Homosexuals displaced the Economic Survey for the year 2008-09 from the headlines of most media on July 3, 2009. New headings such as, ‘Historic benchmark’; ‘Sexual equality’; ‘Landmark Judgement’ appeared in the media. This is how the media had headlined the Delhi High Court judgement holding Sec. 377 of the Indian Penal Code, which makes homosexual acts offences in law, partly unconstitutional. Sec. 377 of the Indian Penal Code was not Manu’s code. It was Macaulay’s. This colonial law made homosexuality punishable. In Judeo-Christian tradition homosexuality was seen an act against the law of God, punishable even with death. The Islamic rules also prescribed capital punishment for the offence. In all Abrahamic traditions the hostility to homosexuality originated in the story associated with a city as Sodom [the etymological source of the world 'sodomy'] where the sexual sin was first committed according to their texts, though the respective accounts varied. This is the philosophy of the law against homosexuals in Abrahamic societies. Macaulay’s law reflected their theological position. Earlier, there was no state law in India to punish homosexuality. Does that mean that the Hindu Â- read Indian Â- tradition approved of homosexuality?”
The article adds: “What was the position of the state and state enacted laws in India in such matters? The king or the state in India had refrained from handling most issues which the society or families could handle. It is the colonial state, with its laws and courts, that began to intrude the sovereign domain of the family and society. The Indian discipline was always built around unenforced social and family norms; not state laws. Self-restraint and shyness were the tools to regulate the deviants from the norms, not the police or courts. Even today, it is this non-formal moral order Â- read dharma Â- not the laws of Parliament or State assemblies, that largely governs this society. India is otherwise ungovernable; just some 12,000 plus police stations in some 7 lakh towns and villages cannot regulate over 110 crore people. Thanks to this moral order, the Indian society had handled, and even now handles, such sensitive issues with great finesse than does state law. It is in stark contrast to the gross state law and media discourse of today. Historian Devdutt Puranik says that in Hindu literature ‘though not part of the mainstream, the existence of homosexuality was recognised, but, not approved’.”
It concludes: “Tolerance for the deviants from generally accepted human conduct is part of the Indian ethos. Here the society would wisely ignore the marginal deviants rather than punish them, even discuss them Â- a more subtle, sensible social management principle. The society felt, even now feels, shy to discuss them. That is why the traditional religious scholars have refused to be drawn into the current debate on the issue. In the Indian tradition, homosexuals, as elsewhere, were thus regarded as deviants. But, here, unlike in the Abrahamic, the right of these deviants to exist without being punished was never denied; and will never be. Yet no one can argue here or elsewhere that homosexuality is a virtue. No law or court of law can declare it as a virtue”.
Given that the Supreme Court has upheld the Delhi High Court’s verdict decriminalizing homosexuality and on the other hand a survey indicates that 81pct of Indians do not approve of same sex relationships, let us know what you think ?
This piece first appeared in Indian Express on 16 July 09.
Comments
18 Responses to “Article 377 – Food for Thought”
Same sex relationships is a perversion, of a hyper-sexualized western society. Nothing more! Yes, I agree that there exists biologically abnormal people, who have been known in India as the third sex. But, this entire concept to two biologically fit male/female in amorous relationship, is simply a product of over application of Freudian concept that everyone is related via sex.
As a social issue, I do agree that a lot of people have homosexual tendencies, that come “normally” to them. But, then there are a lot of perverts to whom “incest” or “pedophilia” comes normally. Should we allow them too?
Its a long debate, but let me ask a simple question - two siblings are not allowed to have sex because their offsprings would have a higher chance of genetic defect. But, if homosexuality becomes legal, whats stopping two sisters or two brothers from having sex? Are we going to legalize incest? Why not **between two sisters**?
i simply endorse the view of Mr. Gurumurthy in this regard, we rather not discuss things that might be harmful to the society but also allow it to exist. But the hype given by the media certainly gives the impression that it is a virtue. Let me ask a simple question has anybody till now being arrest or punished by any court of law in our country or elsewhere for being so. NEVER, so the punishment and everything has been only in papers and not in reality, so it doesn’t make an iota of difference what the court order is, those people have always been indulging in such act. I might like to add one more question, If consensual sex between two adults is not a crime, then how do you explain the criminalisation of prostitution, it beats me. Moreover, it has only given opportunity to law enforcement officers to mint money. If someone has an answer do let me know
To JK,
Harrasment against homosexuals is common. they may not have been arrested beczuse even the police realise that the case will not stand.
I completely agree that prostitution should also be legalised. If a teacher can sell her brains, a labourer can sell his arms and legs whats so special about genitals?
To Bhavnanda,
A child is not developed to take a decision about his/her life. Hence the “Consensual Adult” clause of the Court. And hence the wierdness and illegality of “Paedophilia”.
Incest is a personal choice, many cultures in India allow marriages between First Cousins.
Homosexuality (or for that matter ALL relations) is about comfort and understanding and attraction to ideas/behaviour that one thinks compliments his/her own needs.
SAME Gender/Sex comes much later.
First and foremost please stop seeing Homosexuality from the sexual point ONLY. It is not fair and very narrow point of view. As a male I might be more attracted to males for the perspective of understanding or insecurity or way of thinking.
To make it ONLY an sexual “deviance” is grossly limited, foolish and unfortunately misconcieved.
Nobody is saying Homosexuality is a virture.
It is just the way God created them.
Nobody is telling you to accept it, but at least dont call them criminals.
India is not defined on religious tenets, hence when such issues are raised they have to be “sanctified” by law. Obviously whether or not to debar such people from a religion is a choice for that community to decide.
समलैंगिकता… नालायक लोगों की मुहीम
देश की संस्कृति , परंपरा ,समाज और परिवार को नष्ट भ्रष्ट करने के लिए समलैंगिकता को वैधता देने की मुहीम हमें तो कुछ लोगों का षडयंत्र ही लगता है .क्योंकि पश्चिम के कुछ देशों ने इसे वैधता प्रदान कर दी है इसलिए अब ये हमारे लिए भी जरुरी हो गया है की हम भी इसे मान्यता दे दें .इस प्रकार की सोच केवल मानसिक दिवालियेपन का सबूत है . क्या यह जरुरी है की पश्चिमी देश जो कहे और जो करे वो सही है . इसका क्या अर्थ हुआ की हमारे लिए क्या अच्छा है क्या बुरा है यह सोचने की ताक़त भी अब हममे नहीं रह गयी है .इस प्रकार की सोच मात्र पश्चिमी देशों की आर्थिक सम्पनता के प्रभाव में आकर किये गए नीति का अनुसरण है और कुछ नहीं . आज हालत यह हो गयी है की हम पश्चिमी देशों की सडी गली परंपरा और संस्कृति को अपनाने में गर्व महसूस करते हैं शर्म नहीं . आयुर्वेद और योग हमारे लिए सही है या नहीं या इससे लाभ होता है या नहीं इसका भी सर्टिफिकेट लेने के लिए हम पश्चिम का मुँह ताकते हैं .जब तक पश्चिमी देश हमारे ज्ञान पर अपना मुहर लगा नहीं देता तब तक हम अपनी ही ज्ञान पर सवाल खडा करते रहते हैं .ज्योतिष विद्या को लेकर आज यही सब कुछ हाल के सूर्य ग्रहण पर देखने को मिला .मीडिया ने कोई कसर नहीं छोड़ी हमारे ज्योतिष ज्ञान पर प्रश्न खडा करने में .
समलैंगिकता के विषय को मीडिया ने ही तूल दिया है .मीडिया को इस बात से कोई लेना देना नहीं है की बहुमत के लोगों के इस विषय पर क्या विचार हैं .उन्हें इस बात से भी मतलब नहीं है की समलैंगिकता को वैध करार किये जाने पर समाज पर इसके क्या बुरे परिणाम हो सकते हैं या मानसिक तौर पर देश के लोगों पर क्या प्रभाव पड सकता है .कभी कभी तो यह मुझे देश के खिलाफ षडयंत्र लगता है .समलैंगिकता को वैध बनाने की मुहीम नालायक लोगों की मुहीम के अलावा और कुछ नहीं है . समाज में व्याप्त अन्य बुराइयों की तरह समलैंगिकता भी एक बुराई है और इसे इसी नजरिये से देखा जाना चाहिए .इसे वैध बनाना समाज और परिवार के लिए घातक है .
@Vainateya Pinglay:
You just said “It is just the way God created them.”
For heaven’s sake, STOP JUSTIFYING PERVERSION IN THE NAME OF GOD. This is the logic of all criminals, perverts, terrorists - that God created them like this, it is God’s wish, and so on!
The age of consensual sex depends on various cultures. For Britain it’s recently changed to 15 due to teenage pregnancies and other western countries are likely to follow suit. So, it boils down to one judge deciding one fine morning to drop the age of consent - and by your logic, pedophilia will stop being a perversion!
As for incest, NO I didn’t mention anything about second cousin, etc. I specifically stated the case of two sisters (or brothers) sharing SAME PARENTS - is this going to OK as well? Why NOT?
Bottomline - With the exception of GENETICALLY abnormal humans (including hormonal problems) who have been and should be accepted socially in India, the current hype of homosexuality is fashion or display of perversion just like pedophilia, incest, etc - it boils down to a society accepting or not. Hyper-sexual western civillizations have slowly accepted homosexuality, incest and pedophilia and India is likely to follow suit.
@ Bhavnanda
I would love to leave GOD out of the discussion, cuz either way it doesnt matter.
Yes the logic is used by all that “this is how I am created”, and hence the need to get legality/rationality in the discussion.
We certainly cannot leave it to the “intelligence” of the society, particularly a society where customs like Sati, Child Marriage, Honour Killings, Caste/Race/Creed differentiation etc. exists and are practiced even today!
If prostituion would have beeen legalised,the poor woman in Bihar would not have been treated like this in front of 100s of citizens today!
This is the prime example of how INHUMAN our society is.
Just because one doesnt understand it does not make it a crime.
Further what they are saying is if you do not want to accept them DONT, at least do not say they are criminals!
As for INCEST,
Frankly it does make me feel “ewww”, but that is just a function of how i am bought up. I dont know why it is WRONG rationally, unless you help me (please be rational in your explanation) to see what is wrong in it.
Having said that if I come across a incestuous couple I know the least I will do is be human.
I DONT think any country has accepted paedophilia and I am sure it is a punishable crime in almost all the countries!
I know INCEST is not defined as crime in many countries, but am sure it is not easily accepted.
Please keep your mind open, I know the heart is forced to be closed within a emotional society.
@Vainateya: I’m not sure if you tried to rebut my previous points, but I don’t see any. So, I’ll address some of the new points you stated -
1. “We certainly cannot leave it to the “intelligence” of the society, ” - I’m not sure if this means that one man (judge), for whatever reason or logic, should have the power to decide whats acceptable and whats not. If you think so, I disagree.
Surely, there are a lot of evils in our society, but thats also true for all societies. And, undoubtedly, things must change - but for the better only. Just because somethings are wrong, doesn’t mean we change everything.
2. “I dont know why it is WRONG rationally, unless you help me” - That is indeed a good point because right/wrong or is a matter of perception, DECIDED by a society. There is no absolute here. One may as well argue, why is it RATIONALLY WRONG to throw (figuratively) parents out of one’s house once they are old …. I’ll leave this up to you except that majority of Indians accept that to be wrong.
3. “I DONT think any country has accepted paedophilia” - I’ve addressed this before as well. Today a 40 yr old man having sex with a 15 yr old girl is pedophilia - tomorrow a judge will say the age of consent is down to 15. Lo and behold! Pedophilia becomes legal (over age 15)……. And this, only for non-Islamic countries. If you consider Islamic ones, well … its a different world there out there (http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/JenniferKing50718.htm)
Anyway, I’m reiterating this - homosex is a social perversion only because a society considers so and judge(s) should not unilaterally decide against social norms without the will of the society or their representatives, i.e. politicians.
@Bhavananda
I am not trying to rebutt anyone’s point. Neither yours nor the homosexual who is saying “let me be”.
And that is my point! “Live and Let live”
My (singular person) culture is not dependant on anyone else.
The judge is NOT trying to make a social point. He is trying to make a legal/constitutional point.
As a majority you can try and change the constitution to make Homosexuality illegal. Legally that will be your ONLY recourse.
I already said socially you are free to treat them as you please that is your prerogative.
Some of the sentences you have written are so brilliant, I am surprised you are actually talking against Homosexuality. For example,
“There is no absolute here.” Yes so true. Nothing is absolute. Neither your social values nor mine. They are but a function of time and experience. Some years ago society had a problem with women in films, most of them were refered to as prostitutes. look how time has changed…
“…right/wrong or is a matter of perception”. Yes it is, absolute right or wrong does not exist. Hence my dilemma for INCEST. And hence I say I am NOT rebutting your view (who am i to do that). But I shall defend the view of a Homosexual for she/he also has a right to a view.
If a society feels Homosexuality is not allowed, well please feel free to stop interacting with that person. But please DO NOT take his/her LEGAL CONSTITUTIONAL right to be the way he/she wants to be.
Please do not mix up LEGAL and SOCIAL matters.
If any of my words have hurt you, I offer my sincerest apologies. Rebuttal is the last thing on my mind.
Human Rights the first…
@Vaineteya: You sound as if society and laws (legal/constitutional issues) are two different planets; they are not!
If you frame laws or set constitution that directly confront social norms, you set the stage for internal dissent and fuel extremism. Just think for a moment why Islamic states (except Turkey) cannot adopt modern secular, democratic laws.
When I stated “nothing is absolute”, I assumed that you would have SOME SENSE OF PROPORTION - like you would know a healthy man cannot get pregnant, for example. Clearly you took it too literally.
For social norms, it depends on the mindset of the people - and the society (NOT a judge) collectively decides whats acceptable or not. Laws and constitution should be framed keeping this in mind, not vice versa.
Finally, your statement “If a society feels Homosexuality is not allowed, well please feel free to stop interacting with that person” is really … childish (in absence of a better word)
For example, if you protest against the use of cocaine in society, a drug user will tell you to keep away because asking him to stop using drugs would take his legal/constitutional/human rights away (just an example, don’t take it literally). Like you said if someone doesn’t like homosexuals, keep away from them.
Just like a gay person should have his rights, shouldn’t a drug user have his rights to do what he wants to do with his life? Why not? You may argue, drugs kill people but gays don’t (which is technically incorrect). OK - smoking kills too, so why only ban drugs? The answer is that collectively, a society decides to bad drugs, allow smoking. Same with gays! And, a judge making a unilateral decision otherwise is most unfortunate.
@Bhavanada
Your equation ofHomosexuality with Drugs/smoking is unfortunate. I can only pray youunderstand Homosexuality better.
I am sorry but LEGAL and SOCIAL norms are not fromthesame planet. And where they are (Islamic countries) you can very well see the effects.
Indian constitution was not based on SOCIAL norms (Thank the framers). If it was UNTOUCHABILITY, CASTE DISCRIMINATION would have been LEGALLY allowed, as it was prevalent then.
Please dont blame the judge, he only applied the Constitutional rights.
If at all you should blame the constitution that it does not aspire to Indian Society. BUT if you do that, GOD help you!
There is another word for people who refuse to accept LEGAL norms and are hell bent of Social MAJORITY … FACISTS!!!
समलैंगिकता का समर्थन करने वाले समाज के बिगडेल लोग हैं .इन्हे मर्यादा, नैतिकता जैसे शब्द चुभते हैं . अप्राकृतिक यौन इच्छा की पूर्ति के लिए परिवार और समाज इनके लिए कोई मायने नहीं रखता .नैतिकता और मर्यादा के मापदंड पर जब ये खरे नहीं उतरते तो नैतिकता और मर्यादा की बात करने वालों को ये फासिस्ट कहना शुरू कर देते हैं .ये इनका घिसा पिटा पुराना डाईलोग है .अंत में मैं तो यही कहूँगा की ये समाज के अवांछित तत्त्व हैं .
i think we should adopt the “don’t ask don’t tell” (say it xAxT) policy which was till recently practiced by us forces. as far as the law is concerned article 377 is ultra vires and should be scrapped. the problem of homosex has to be decided by the unwritten laws of society “dharma” as pointed out earlier. as far our culture goes i think the xAxT policy is best suited. but one thing i must agree with the author it is not something that should be allowed to catch the headlines any more. but we cannot help about it. more narcissistic the topic more favourite to the media. thats why SRP and congress are also media favs.
Even if your people say “live & let live” and accept homosexuality, there is a bigger problem. The crippled law and order is not able to protect girls from being raped, there is insecurity among the fairer sex for ex: drug abuse and subsequent physical abuse.
Our courts take ages to give judgments on these issues. And what would happen if homosexuality is legalized, we may have a headline someday saying our PM has been done in from behind and there is a chargesheet filed and the roller-coaster starts from there.
Those western nations which have adopted this have fine internal security and legal arrangements, hence India should not be compared with them. We have to see this purely in an Indian context where we do not have enough infrastructure to protect straight offenders and the last thing this system needs is gay sex offenders.
I am also not agree with the homosexuality. This is the criminalization in contry or world.
यदि बीजेपी आज के कूड़ा करकट कहे जाने वाले संस्कारहीन ,मर्यादाहीन, भ्रष्ट और पक्षपाती टीवी न्यूज़ चैनलों के सहारे अपनी नैय्या पार लगाने की सोच रही है तो बीजेपी इस भ्रम में नहीं रहे , वर्तमान न्यूज़ चैनल्स बीजेपी के लिए भस्मासुर से कम नहीं है .ये चैनल्स एक दिन इस देश की बीजेपी की और पुरे हिन्दू समाज और उसके संस्कृति की नैय्या डुबो देंगे . इसके पहले की सबकी नैय्या डूबे बीजेपी को अपने न्यूज़ चैनलों की सहुरुआत कर लेनी चाहिए . ये मैं पूरी जिम्मेदारी के साथ बीजेपी को आगाह कर रह हूँ .
यदि बीजेपी आज के कूड़ा करकट कहे जाने वाले संस्कारहीन ,मर्यादाहीन, भ्रष्ट और पक्षपाती टीवी न्यूज़ चैनलों के सहारे अपनी नैय्या पार लगाने की सोच रही है तो बीजेपी इस भ्रम में नहीं रहे , वर्तमान न्यूज़ चैनल्स बीजेपी के लिए भस्मासुर से कम नहीं है .ये चैनल्स एक दिन इस देश की बीजेपी की और पुरे हिन्दू समाज और उसके संस्कृति की नैय्या डुबो देंगे . इसके पहले की सबकी नैय्या डूबे बीजेपी को अपने न्यूज़ चैनलों की शुरुआत कर लेनी चाहिए . ये मैं पूरी जिम्मेदारी के साथ बीजेपी को आगाह कर रह हूँ .
जिस तरह बीमार अंग्रेजी मानसिकता और मानसिक रूप से दिवालिया हो चुकी गैरजिम्मेदार मीडिया समलैंगिकता को अपना समर्थन दे रही है .उससे तो यही लगता है की इसके पीछे कांग्रेस का हाथ है . वह चाहती है की समलैंगिकता के विरूद्व जो अपराध की धारा है , वह ख़त्म कर दिया जाये . अपराध की धारा ख़त्म होने के साथ ही यह कृत्य कानून की नज़र में अपराध नहीं रह जायेगा . सम्लैंगिकिकता का अपराध नहीं रह जाने की स्थिति में यह होगा की ऐसे लोगों को राष्ट्रीय सम्मान (पद्म सम्मान) आदि मिलने का रास्ता साफ़ हो जायेगा . कोई ताज्जुब नहीं किसी समलैंगिक को बड़े ही सम्मान के साथ संस्कृतिविहीन कांग्रेस सम्मानित भी कर दे . ऐसी स्थिति में आज के बच्चों और आज की युवा पीढी पर क्या असर पड़ेगा ? समलैंगिकता को अपराध की श्रेणी से हटाना क्या यह आज की युवा पीढी के लिए खतरनाक नहीं होगा ? देश का भविष्य और देश की संस्कृति से प्यार करने वाले लोगों को यह सोचना होगा .
समलैंगिकता के समर्थन की बात करना यह हमारे देश की संस्कृति को छिन्न-भिन्न करने की साजिश लगती है .
friends of bjp से अपील
यदि इस साईट को स्वस्थ बनाना है तो friends of bjp के लोगों को चाहिए की इसको बी बी सी हिंदी . कॉम की तर्ज़ पर बनाये .जैसा की उसमे दुनिया भर के सभी लोग अपनी निष्पक्ष राय किसी भी लेख पर रखते हैं जो बी बी सी द्वारा पोस्ट किया जाता है .यह साईट अस्वस्थ ही नहीं बल्कि षडयंत्र का शिकार भी है .कोई कुछ भी पोस्ट कर रहा है जो विषय या लेख से सम्बन्धित नहीं है .यह अस्वस्थ तरीका है .